parker gun part swapping

[TARNATION !!!]

Caution to the reader. The following may be true/false or none of the above. Do I need to understand aeronautics to fly in an airliner? Do I need to understand automotive mechanics to drive a car?? Do I need to understand barrel regulation to shoot a gun?? Maybe not but now I want to, even as the midnight hour is swiftly approaching.

After asking questions and getting answers and thinking about it all, I'm less confused (or more) and may or may not have it straight.

SXS barrels have a straight bore
SXS barrels Outside Diameter is greater at the breech and narrower at the muzzle but the bore Inside Diameter is consistent so... the wall thickness is greater at the breech and less at the muzzle and the least midway along the barrel length.
That we can see with this diagram posted a few times on the forums.



From this diagram the breech OD is 1.205 and the muzzle OD is 0.825. OD midway is 0.799 The variance from breech to muzzle is 0.38 but midway the variance is greater, being 0.406
To have the two barrels become a single unit, Dean just explained that the breech end is filed to half its thickness and the two brazed together. The filing would have to start at half thickness and continue at an angle toward the muzzle that allows the two muzzles to just touch. That angle changes according to the length of the barrels. Now there is a lot of space between the two barrels from the brazed join at the breech and the touching barrels at the muzzle. This space is filled at intervals with soldered shims - more shims midway than at either the breech or muzzle end. Shimming has an effect on regulation as does the angle of breech wall filing, as I understand it. The gun can be fired without the rib being laid and adjustments can be made in the shimming to achieve the desired regulation. I think

As I understand it, the purpose of regulating the barrels is to have the payload from either barrel hit the same point of impact at a specified range. A waterfowler may be regulated for 40 or 50 yards and an upland gun may be regulated for 20 or 30 yards. It could be regulated to a customer's specification.

Beyond the point of regulation, the shot strings will cross each other. Before that point, the two shot strings will be converging and beyond that point, the two shot strings will be diverging.

Given that the diameter of an effective pattern is approx 30 inches, a bird in the center of the point of regulation is quite dead. Moving the bird further down range and not moving the barrels, the bird will be closer to the edge of the pattern until it is eventually not in the pattern. Same effect moving the bird closer (but of course the pattern diameter is less and less so if you connect you have a dead bird but nothing left to eat ).

I'm still unsure how shortening the barrels, with the shims not having been touched, changes the regulation. I can see that the choke may be changed, thus opening the pattern earlier and reducing effective range. For example, a heavy waterfowler is now a short range upland gun. This part remains unclear to me.

I may or may not see Dean's point regarding shortened barrel causing a shooter to hit high. Now if one were used to a 32" gun (uncut) would this shooter hit high with a 28" gun (uncut) ???

I know when I close my eyes and pull the trigger, sometimes I'm high, sometimes I'm low, sometimes there's a dead rooster sometimes there's not. I guess I need to concentrate on seeing just the bead and bird, but when I try that, the bird inevitably carries on untouched. But I am glad the Parker Bros got it all figured out for me, even if I don't quite understand it all yet.

Cheers,
Jack

Here are some images of a barrel set with ribs removed showing the soldered shims. Sent my way from Jent to help explain some of this.

[Dean Romig]

Originally Posted by Jack Cronkhite

I may or may not see Dean's point regarding shortened barrel causing a shooter to hit high. Now if one were used to a 32" gun (uncut) would this shooter hit high with a 28" gun (uncut) ???

No Jack because we're talking "cut barrels" not barrels that were manufactures to a particular length. A gun has its barrels regulated not only in relation to each other but also in relation to the placement of the rib and bead on the barrels. You will note that on many live bird or trap Parkers and other live bird or trap SXS shotguns of the day the top rib was somewhat narrower at the muzzles than at the breech end.... a finely tapered rib in other words, allowing the rib to lay lower between the muzzles facilitating the angle of the center line of the bore somewhat upward in relation to the line of vision of the shooter. This allowed the gun to shoot high to a rising bird.
This placement of the rib wasn't necessarily on every gun of this description but was on many of them. Even later the placement and angle of the ventilated rib allowed for the same angle.

[TARNATION !!!]

The part I like best is "shoot 'em"

[Dean Romig]

John, regarding my statement that a gun with shortened barrels having a tendency to shoot high; The line of the center of the bore is, as you say, a straight line that cannot be altered.... but the shooter's line of sight (also a straight line which cannot be altered) is aligned in direct relation to the center line of the bores and the aid in this alignment is the plane of the top rib with a bead set upon it as a further aid in aligning the shooter's line of vision relative to the center line of the bores. When the barrels are shortened the rib, of course is shortened also, altering the aid to alignment of the two straight lines that the shooter is dependant upon. Now as the shooter maintains his straight line of vision along the shorter rib and the bead the angle of the center line of the bores has been altered upward a bit at the end of the barrels. There is no helping this if the shooter is to shoot as he has always done, i.e. using the rib and bead as his only aid in aligning the center line of the bores with his intended target. This will be more pronounced in smaller gauge guns on larger frames, e.g. a 28 ga. on a 0-frame or a 16 ga. on a 2-frame or a 12 ga. gun on a 3-frame with cut barrels.

[Holeshot]

I agree with Bill. Shoot the gun and check point of impact. Only a pattern board will tell if there is any concern. I have shot both and the open chokes help cover up the loss of regulation. I tend to pattern all my sxs's, after having a 20 that crossed over past 20 yards and it was factory length and tight choked. Didn't make much of a dove gun.

[Hammer Gun]

Vincent, There were guns that left the factory that were not exactly on the inch!

[Double Trouble]

Good information, guys !

It sure would have been fascinating to have watched the workers at Parker assemble one of these fine guns !

I have stayed away from shortened barrels, re-choked and re-chambered guns- But I have an 'optical illusion perhaps' with these "Given factors for me- (1) I shoot 12 gauge shotguns 95% of the time (2) at age 70 I still have 20-20 vision with perfect depth perception (3) I am right handed and have a right dominant eye- no cast on or off (4) Any shotgun stocked about like a factory original field grade Model 12 from 1936 to 1960 will fit me well (5) I always shoot from the low gun position- with the butt tucked up under my right armpit- learned a lot from the H&H Ken Davies Videos-

That being said- I have two LC Smiths with different barrel lengths and ribs- a 1945 Ideal FWE 12 with 26" barrels and the raised solid rib they brought out in about 1939- no middle bead sight- and that raised rib makes the barrels seem (to my vision anyway) more like a 28" barreled 12 (my 3E and my GHE)-- But the flip side-my favorite Tower bird, goose and turkey 12 (since I sold the heavy HE Super-Duper Fox anyway) is a 2E 12 Smith rebarreled with 32" Nitro Steel barrels, factory ventilated rib with NO middle bead sight- and not a Longrange- it has 3" chambers and the steel Y lower rib reinforcement- and that cannon with the ventilated rib makes (again, just to my vision) the barrels seem shorter- much like the 30" Crown Steel barrels on my 12 gauge 2E--

I don't notice that illusion with my M12's however- 2 12 ga. M12's I own- a field 30" mfg. 1937 (Dad's gun) with a factory solid rib Full choke- and a 1948 Pigeon Grade trap with the old style milled rib- 30" Imp. Mod. choke- I focus on the bird anyways, whether clay or feathers-

You have to be very careful- about 6 years ago at an area gun show, I saw a nice 4E NID 20 bore with straight grip, single trigger, early NID with the visible cocking indicators- priced at about $2250- I asked the dealer, a man whom I knew slightly, for OK to examine it- he said "go ahead' and handed it to be-as I reached for my 10' Stanley tape rule, he "jumped the gun" and said- Those are 28" barrels, no need to measure- but I did- three times and each time I read 26 & 3/4"- He knew the "jig was up" and I removed the forearm and read the barrel choke numerical code- No 4 in each barrel- so- my guess-it was originally a 28" barreled gun Full choke in each tube- and some "hacksaw Jack" wanted to open the patterns- Wrong move- I would NOT have bought that Ithaca for any price-you can never re-sell it to anyone that knows what to look for-

[Dean Romig]

We should all be so lucky. The chances of that happening are slim indeed.

[Bruce Day]

Bishops but mostly Fajens made standard V grade configuration and with a deep cut angled thumb groove stocks for the trade. They also made beavertail fore ends. They were machine inletted but required hand fitting, checkering and finishing and addition of a recoil pad. They went to Simmons in Olathe Kansas, around the country and into Ilion, NY. When Fajens closed, Fred Wenig Gunstocks in Lincoln, MO bought the large remainder stock and used them as needed. When Fred retired, the take off inventory was sold and the Fajen remainder new stocks were sold. A noted PGCA member bought the remainder stock and disposed of much of that with the last couple years at cost to members who needed utilitarian stocks and fore end wood. I didn't know what happened to the take off stocks, Cabelas in Kansas City could have ended up with the Simmons take offs or the Fajen/Wenig take offs.

Fred Wenig had been the superintendent for Fajen, later after Fred left to establish his own shop, Donnie Gemmes became the superintendent. Fred retired from his Wenig Gunstocks, it is now employee owned, and Donnie went on to create Show Me Gunstocks. Marti Fajen went on to become the US importer for CZ Guns , a woman owned gun businesses, then several years ago, Marti sold out. Wenig Gunstocks and Show Me Gunstocks still make replacement stocks for Parkers.