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Unread 06-22-2013, 10:04 AM   #1
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Bruce and Mike, I have already procured a testing facility and they are awaiting the samples. That is the easy part. Now to just get the samples back. As I said before. Stay tuned...

I want to agree with Mike that the barrel steel is virtually the same but as Bruce stated there are definite differences in the way the barrels finish up and I am inclined to think that it may be the result of a higher chromium content in the higher grade barrels.
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Unread 06-22-2013, 11:07 AM   #2
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Bruce,

Thank you as once again you have brought up a subject that is not only interesting but thought provoking and educational. I have to admit I have never given a moment's thought about whether Parker Brothers used the same steel but named differently as a marketing ploy. My uninformed thought would be they used different compositions of steel for each grade of gun. I would think a metallurgist could melt the different steels and come up with differences in composition, possibly more manganese or carbon or whatever else is in barrel steel. I know Winchester made a big deal about using molybdenum in their barrels at one time. Possibly without advertising exactly what was in their steel each was constructed of similar but different ingredients for Parker barrels.

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Unread 06-22-2013, 11:10 AM   #3
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Pretty crummy for 'gentlemen' to take sample then vanish.

Any scrapyard nowadays has a tester that can easily tell you what kind of metal you have. From what I gather, the testers have come a long way in recent times and produce some very specific results - not just steel or aluminum.
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Unread 06-22-2013, 11:50 AM   #4
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Greg, Both instances of these tests not getting done were the result of things completely out of the persons doing the test's control.

Bruce,Thank you again for bringing this topic up. It seems we revisit this every few years.
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Unread 06-22-2013, 12:14 PM   #5
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As most are well aware, there was a call on the DoubleGunBBS and PGCA sites in 2005 "Contribute Junk To Advance Barrel Strength Knowledge" with the hope of obtaining vintage barrel samples for composition and strength testing.

This was posted by ‘Zircon’ in Jan. 2007. Unfortunately, the testing effort apparently ended thereafter.

http://www.familyfriendsfirearms.com...p/t-55364.html


I am doing a failure analysis of a pair of Parker barrels - one set damascus, and the other set homogenous Vulcan “fluid steel”. These barrels were used in the study by Sherman Bell and Tom Armbrust, published in Double Gun Journal. They subjected each barrel to increasingly heavier loads and they both failed at about 30,000 psi. Modern ammo gets up perhaps to 12,000 psi. Most folks that shoot these old gals use shells loaded to the 7,500 psi range.

During the failure analysis I noticed that the fracture length for the Vulcan barrels was substantially longer than for the damascus barrels. A close examination of the fracture surface showed progressive, low cycle fatigue marks on the damascus barrel. The crack advanced slightly with each increasingly higher pressured load. On the Vulcan barrels, both sides failed by a brittle fracture mechanism. By this, I mean the barrels let go in one fell swoop. Even though both sets of barrels failed at 30,000 psi, the behavior of the damascus barrels was superior to the Vulcan barrels, owing to the fact that the Vulcan barrels failed in a brittle fracture mode. A ductile fracture trumps a brittle fracture every time.

One of the (myths) with damascus is that it will fail at the welds where the original rods were forge-welded together. When I looked at this particular set of damascus barrels using a metallographically prepared sample, and up to 1,000X optical magnification, I saw NO EVIDENCE of weld joint failure, slag in the weld joints, porosity in the weld joints, etc. I have about 30 old barrels in this study, homogenous, damascus, and twist included. I am a practicing metallurgist who holds an M.S. degree, and am qualified to state the observations of barrel integrity made in this posting.

On the two old Parker barrels, there is a screw hole that comes up from the bottom and pins the extractors in place. Both barrels failed at that hole, because it takes a (segment) out of the side of the chamber and is the thinnest portion of the chambered area.

The damascus barrel let go by a mechanism known as low cycle fatigue. Each succeeding round had higher and higher pressure. After several rounds, a crack started at the extractor screw hole. Each successive round caused the crack to open up just a bit further, until finally the overpressure could not be contained and the (barrel) failed in a ductile fashion. Ductile failures in steel look like a taffy pull at about 1500 to 3000X magnification using scanning electron microscopy. There is a cup and cone appearance with a lot of micro-voids present. This appearance is a dead-set giveaway to a ductile fracture.

The "fluid steel" barrel failed by brittle rupture. The fracture surface is more or less smooth, but has some "rivulets" in it that point back towards the initiation point, which again was the screw hole. The fracture surface was about 3X as long as for the damascus barrels. In other words, the same 30,000 psi final internal load created a lot more fracture surface in the homogenous barrel than in the damascus barrel. This indicates that, for an equivalent-length fracture, it took less energy to open up the homogeneous barrel than for the damascus barrel. The words in the Sherman Bell article were that the Vulcan barrel failed much more abruptly and (violently) than the damascus barrel.

So the verbal description of the failures during firing and the visual observations of the fracture surfaces are in accord with each other. Both barrels ripped lengthwise for some distance and then the rupture terminated in a circumferential crack. In the case of the damascus barrels the crack spiraled around with the weld pattern, but it was not on a weld, rather it was on one of the in-between areas. After the damascus pattern is formed by wrapping rods together and forging them into a strip (the "skelp") which is wrapped around a mandrel, spiral paper-tube fashion, and is forge welded together. These spiral welds remained tight and the parent metal is what failed. This may seem pretty amazing, but in many, many instances the actual steel welded structure is stronger than parent metal.

Many microphotographs, chemical analysis of the steel, etc. (will) make up the (anticipated) article. I'll also be looking at several other barrel ruptures and measuring the strength of the various barrel steels in the "hoop" direction as the barrel will always fail in hoop tension with a lengthwise crack. Any internally pressurized cylinder has 2X the force in the hoop direction as in the longitudinal (axial) dimension, so it's no wonder why barrels all seem to blow out with lengthwise cracks.


I've spoken to another gentleman who abandoned his testing effort related to illness 4-5 years ago, and have no knowledge of the fate of his barrel samples
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Unread 06-22-2013, 12:21 PM   #6
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Dr. Drew, This is one of the gentlemen that I sent samples to. I do have his micro photographs of the testing that he talks about. Very interesting material to say the least. Thank you for your reply.
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Unread 06-22-2013, 12:36 PM   #7
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This will be very interesting to see test results of composition. I believe we would still be shooting new damascus barreled guns today if they were cheaper to produce. It was never about safety or strength.
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Unread 06-22-2013, 01:33 PM   #8
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Dr. Drew,
That was fascinating and put into a vernacular that we all can understand. I must copy it and send to shooting buddies of mine who still step back when I'm shooting one of my damascus guns.
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Unread 06-22-2013, 05:14 PM   #9
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I have talked to "Zircon" several times on the subject as I was interested in trying to get out some elastic properties of the damascus. He informed me that for personal reasons he was unable to continue the work as he was attempting to find some properties in the hoop stress direction. We had some interesting conversions and although I have taken a couple of undergrad metallurgy classes I am not a metallurgist by any stretch of the imagination. As my studies focus on mechanics of materials, specifically composites, that is the research I would like to do on the damascus barrels. I have access to the necessary equipment to get out some tensile and compression data and even some higher strain rate properties. I bid on some 10 ga grade 2 damascus barrels today on ebay but lost. They were cut down to 21'' and I thought they would make a good specimen for research.
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Unread 06-22-2013, 05:25 PM   #10
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One more chime, some of the higher grades (and costly) may have very similar chemistry though the tolerances for each element will be held to a much tighter spec, that in turn compliments properties and consistency for the customer. What I suspect for example is a Vulcan steel barrel to have a wider range of Cr. (probably at the low end ) and Titanic to be held more at the spec # for its grade of steel. Probably the same grade of steel but the costly elements at the low range of the spec. The early 1900's also saw the open hearth overtake the Bessemer converter giving a much needed control to tighter chemistry in mass produced steel.
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