The Short Ten - How many shooting one?

[J.B. Books]

Originally Posted by Grantham Forester

All these posts are interesting, and I see that the LC Smiths are also mentioned here. No mention of the Fox or Ithaca guns yet, perhaps later. I have used a friend's 10 Stoeger double for geese in past years, but not since steel shot. Perhaps this is why the main topic has been both turkey hunting and then clays. I can only imagine what a tight fisted load of No. 8 chilled shot from a 10 gauge would do to a clay target at close range- decimated!!

A.H. Fox never made a 10ga gun. I think that is too bad they are nice guns. Bismuth and Nice Shot are viable alternatives for waterfowling with a Short Ten.

Frank Cronin hit a clay pigeon at Hausmans early this month with one of his signature 1 1/4 ounce BP loads form his 5 frame hammer 10. I have seen lot of clay pigeons hit over the years, in the 6 digits. I have seen complete dustballs but had never seen this. He shot and the target literally and competely disappeared, POOF. Others on here saw that happen too. Both remarkable and memorable.

[Big Friend Ten (BFT)]

Grantham,

You asked for my "read" on something you wrote. Are you asking for my opinion of the strength on a Syracuse made LC Smith or perhaps the accuracy of your gunsmith's statement?

Concerning the design of the early Smith, I'd like to see a clear photo of the

it has the first design bottom barrel lug, with squared corners.

Perhaps your gunsmith was refering to a square rather than radius of the intersection where the water table meets the standing breach? Yes, some older guns with that design were prone to cracking. I have also seen actions with radious' that cracked in that area. That stated, this may or not be true for this particular LC Smith. A photo of the gun and serial number would be necessary to conduct research into the strength of whatever era gun it was.

Also consider; under what conditions did the actions crack, what percentage of total produced cracked, and is their any evidence rather than old gunsmith's tales to verify this?

Even if that Smith was of a design of which some actions may have cracked under very unknown conditions, I'd load at 6000 psi and shoot the heck out of it!

Mark

[Grantham Forester]

Thank you for the prompt and detailed reply. It is obvious that you know double guns, both from collecting but more to the point, from shooting them, and I surmise, shooting them a great deal. Perhaps I misspoke. His older Smith 10 has the first series square cornered barrel lug design. You are 100% correct about the 90% angle from the standing breech to the water table, or floor of the frame. I have seen a few very early Ithaca hammer guns with twist steel barrels that did not have a machined radius at that point, and you could see, with a 10X magnified, the spider webbed stress cracking on the metal areas.

I can ask him about fotos, but he does not have a computer nor Internet access, so I cannot promise that I could get them posted here. Again, thanks for the prompt response to my inquiry.

[Big Friend Ten (BFT)]

Grantham,

I am but a nimrod compared to many on this forum. We do all "share" what knowledge that we have. Toward this, thank you for pointing out the obvious!

I thought that perhap you were NOT refering to the barrel lug or as most call it, the recoil lug. The recoil lug protudes under the barrels to "hook" the barrels to the action and absorb recoil.

I forget the technical name of the point where the watertable and standing breach meet. I'm sure the British named it long ago... This 1879 Parker has a square breach intersection. There were some Parkers of this design that cracked.



This is the earliest existing LC Smith Syracuse made 10 gauge, made appoximately 1886. This gun is a Grade 2.
Please notice that the breach intersection has a radius.



The Syracuse LC 10 with later Fulton Chain Damascus and Fluid Steel barreled 10 Gauge Grade 2's.


Now that I closely observe the bottom of the recoil lugs on these Smiths I see that the Syracuse gun has square front edges. The later Fulton guns are radiused. The Chain Damascus gun from later Fulton production having a slight radius and the even later fluid steel barreled gun having more radius on the recoil lug. Hmmm... "Stress cracks concentrate at sharp discontenuities of geometric shapes."

In theory recoil might cause the recoil lug to "hammer" the action and crack it because of square fronted recoil lugs. There isn't a lot of metal in the action between recess for the recoil lug and the recess for the hinge pin! Now I can see why LC Smith's designs were changed over time! "Researcher" might know about this happening to early LC Smiths.

All that stated, I''d still load for 6000 psi and shoot that LC Smith!!! I won't hesitate to shoot this Syracuse Smith or early Parker.

PS: I have since had Bachelder restore the metal on the Syracuse LC Smith as he did on the Chain Damascus gun. I'll have to shoot some more "group" photos for your guys who appreciate pretty guns, regardless of maker. They are like blonds, brunettes, and readheads. I like all the pretty ones....

Mark

[Grantham Forester]

Yes, of the three photos of the bottom of the receivers, my friend's older 10 hammerless LC Smith has the squared corners, the two guns shown above that look to have the later front corners with a radius. Do you have any load data for the 6000 psi short ten gauge loads you would care to share- with the understanding that if we use your data, you are in no way responsible if something untoward might occur. Always error on the margin side of safety!

[Big Friend Ten (BFT)]

Grantham,

PGCA Member (hint, hint...) JB Books compiled a comprehensive martix of Short Ten low pressure loading data. I suggest that you send him a PM with your email address included and he'll probably shoot you his list!

I load a lot with 700x, SP-10 with 16 gauge filler wad, 1&1/8 oz shot and roll crimps. I use 1&1/4 oz with 4756 powder. I do not remember the exact charge weights. Better wait for Mr. Books' list...

Mark

[J.B. Books]

Originally Posted by Mark Ouellette

Grantham,

PGCA Member (hint, hint...) JB Books compiled a comprehensive martix of Short Ten low pressure loading data. I suggest that you send him a PM with your email address included and he'll probably shoot you his list!

I load a lot with 700x, SP-10 with 16 gauge filler wad, 1&1/8 oz shot and roll crimps. I use 1&1/4 oz with 4756 powder. I do not remember the exact charge weights. Better wait for Mr. Books' list...

Mark

My comprehensive matrix of Short Ten loads contains both high and low pressure, lead, bismuth, a few steel loads, a Nice Shot and even one Tungsten Matrix load. I have referenced all sources of the info.

The spreadsheet is available here on the PGCA forums but the thread is long, people have made posts after it so it is a little bit buried or hard to find.

Here is a link to a quickly put together i.e. crude video I put on YouTube on how to load the Short Ten. Click "Show More" below the video window and you will find a link to the spreadsheet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owXs4Eg__BE

You can also find a link to it on DuckHuntingChat along with a few pictures of some waterfowling success with a Parker NH 10ga.

http://www.duckhuntingchat.com/forum...7bd50&start=25

[Cold Spring]

Grantham asked about Ithacas. Here are three "Super 10's" All 32-inch, double trigger, extractor guns.

Left gun is the so-called Star model, Full & Full, and is 99+% original in all respects, possibly unfired. Middle one is Mod & Full, with factory BT on an extractor gun, pretty rare I'm told. Right one is also a Star Model and is Full & Full. All three have measured 2-7/8" chambers. I started loading for Short 10's a few months back, and have to say it's pretty addictive. Also very impressive when you turn a clay into diesel smoke.

I don't want to give my time away but all things considered I'm looking forward to ducking this fall and fox calling over the winter. Sorry for the "wifey" background but it's too sunny and HOT to take pics outdoors.

Frank

[Grantham Forester]

I noticed two of your three Ithacas have recoil pads, one does not. Does a good quality pad as shown on your Ithaca guns really help with recoil, less with the 2.88" 10 shell than with the 3.50" shell I should guess. I am thinking about getting a ten, but would want it compatible with steel shot for Geese, as well as coppered loads for Turkey.

And my compliments on both your photography skills and your wife's touch of color- I see many guns listed for sale on GI website with a dark and gloomy background, the color ensemble you used actually enhances the nice grain of the gunstocks, and the metal finish as well.

I see the engraved star pattern, these are the later New Ithaca Double guns, and not the earlier Flews Ithacas, correct??

[Cold Spring]

Thanks for the feedback. I'll tell my wife that the pic backdrop went over well. I've never fired the Super 10 that has the HRBP, so I can't comment about the difference in perceived recoil versus a kick pad.

The Super 10's are NID (New Ithaca Double) guns - not the earlier Flues model. And not to be confused with the later heavier Ithaca Magnum guns made for 3-1/2" shells. The Ithaca NID is an excellent design, similar to A H Foxes with a rotary bolt engaging a slot in the top rib extension.

Personally I'd rather hunt with a vintage 10 gauge like the Ithaca, than with a modern 10 gauge SxS that's compatible with steel shot. I'll use bismuth, Nice or similar non-tox for waterfowl, and regular lead shot for turkeys and predators.

A couple of final pics: This one shows the Super-X type shells these Super 10's were adapted to.



Next one shows an excerpt from Askin's excellent 1929 book, Modern Shotguns and Loads, commenting on his test Super 10 after doing extensive velocity and pattern testing ..... "nearest I ever came to an 80 yard gun".