Who is the Winchester engraver?? Help

[Old and Reliable]

Originally Posted by Bill Murphy

Francis, no need to criticize posters who do not know. Internet readers know how to separate the wheat from the chaff, just from reading an entire thread rather than the single post of a self proclaimed "authority". This will be my last reply to you until further notice.

promises, promises, promises. I haven't been a Winchester guy since third grade, got my first Winchester at age 11- 20 gauge M12. I also have Dave Riffle's book, the Madis book, the Stadt book and tons of other now op WRA: catalogues, reference books, salesman's handbooks, etc-

Granted, this is a Parker forum, and not the Winchester Model 1912 and Model 12 Collectors Assn. Forum-BUT- a member who has a very fine Model 1912 Black Diamond Pigeon Grade posts a legitimate question that can be answered by some research- why should anyone demean his "Perfect Repeater", vis a vis the "Yaka-saki' inference. I won a Japanese Browning Model 12 "repro" 20 gauge- 28" mod. fioxed choke, ventilated rib at a DU Sponsor event, many years ago- I sold it back to Jay Poet in Clare, the supplier to the DU Event Cmte- I never even took it out of the box- It was a Model 12 like a Trojan grade is an AAHE--only by commonality of nomenclature- And none of the tools in my Kennedy and Gerstner tool chests were made in the land of the "Rising Sun' either-

I may not know Model 1912's and Model 12's as well as all other gentlemen on the PGCA, but I will bet you a "steel trap" from brother Dean Romig that I know them better that the majority of them. This M1912 is the "real deal" and to insult it with a 'after market Japanese re-do' is an Infamita!!

[Bill Murphy]

I did proclaim your post to be a good one. Oh my God, I have been struck by lightning again, twice in two days. Did I tell that fellow that I would buy his gun, at his price?

[Old and Reliable]

Originally Posted by Bill Murphy

I did proclaim your post to be a good one. Oh my God, I have been struck by lightning again, twice in two days. Did I tell that fellow that I would buy his gun, at his price?

Now it's time to "Man Up" and get out the old checkbook. But not to worry, I advised the gentleman here who is lucky to own this "Steinway" of shotguns NOT to sell it. So you are "Off de hook", as it were.

I now own 8 model 1912's-model 12's combined. I found a 1916 era M1912 20 gauge- 25" Mod. (Full was std) solid rib field gun in very good shape- of course, it has the 2.5" chambering, so RST shells will be the 'shell de jour" for it-came with the older canvas break-down case, cleaning rod (3 pc. wood with brass ferrules-) and should be great "second Grandson starter gun- as Jordy gets the other M12- the 20 made in 1931- 38" mod--the one my father and grandfather gave me on my 11th B'day-- got to continue the legacy of the "Perfect repeaters"--

[Big D]

Not Japanese? Hmmm. Am I now obligated to commit hari kari on a rusty M12 Op Rod?

[Old and Reliable]

[quote=John Dallas;53393]Not Japanese? Hmmm. Am I now obligated to commit hari kari on a rusty M12 Op Rod?[/quote-- I have two separate bets on the World Series- (1) it will go the full 7 games (Winner) (2) The Cards will win it (not done yet)- plus I had a red letter AM hunt- Op Rod- sounds like a M-1 Garand or a M-14- takes me back to the USMC Armory-- Not familiar with many Jap military weapons- The Ariska BA rifles and the Nambu pistols- so if they had a autoloader that used a op. rod to link the gas piston to the bolt and roller group, I am not aware of that fact.

John- I need you to please understand- I am very "Old School" on the - you make your $ in America, you buy 100% American (with the possible exception of Irish Whiskey and beers, also German Beers)--and my favorite bumper sticker that I have seen so far (at age 70 and closing) reads like this- 'Shop At Wally_Mart- where all of America buys its cheap Chink-made Crap"--

That beautiful Model 1912 Black Diamond Pigeon Grade 12 bore is a very original and rare shotgun, at least- IMO. But I do thank you for the "memory jog" re: op rod-- In the detailed article I recently wrote about the Model 12 (that will not appear in a future issue of PP, and rightly not so) I forgot to mention the ill-fated "Dog-Leg" style op rod that causes WRA beaucoup problems from 1951- to 1954. WRA recalled all the M12's they could that had this "beancounter designed part"- they were such that the recoil that dis-engages the bolt lock-up into battery did not always function reliably- but the original straight op rod did- so they went back to that design- Thanks For The Memories!!!

[Researcher]

Harry Gough was an engraver at Parker Bros., and chief engraver of the engraving department from 1887 to 1898. Harry's sons John A. (Jack) Gough and William H. Gough apprenticed under him. William H. Gough took over running the engraving department from his Father in 1899, and ran it until 1911, when he left to head up the engraving department at the A.H. Fox Gun Co. All the while William H. Gough was running the engraving department at A.H. Fox Gun Co. he generally only did the highest grade guns, and spent most of his engraving time on high-end commission work from Winchester, Colt, Marlin, etc. When the Godshalk's sold out the gun business to Savage, William H. Gough went to Utica. Savage management apparently didn't like his doing commission work from competitors in their factory, so he moved his engraving business to town and operated independently into the 1950s.

P.S. Great old Model 12!!! I'll give you $50 more than Murphy!!!