Damascus Barrel Wall Scratching

[Theodore LeDurt]

Has anyone out there with a damascus gun fired over 200 rounds of the non-tox shot, ITX. Ballistic products said the material in ITX was soft enough for damascus barrels, but a friend has been experimenting with the hardness of the shot, and he is concerned that ITX is hard enough to scratch the metal in a damascus gun.

This is my first year with reloading this shot, and I liked the less expensive price point of it over other non-tox alternatives. Thanks for your responses.

[Big Friend Ten (BFT)]

Theodore,

ITX has a Brinell hardness of about 50. Mild steel and iron have Briness hardness of over 100. There should not be a problem shooting ITX in Damascus since hammer welding should have harden the iron and steel of Damascus barrels.

I believe that with the correct thickness and firmness of wad petals ANY shot would not be a problem. Start with a VP-100 or similar wad designed for steel shot. If you are still concerned about shooting ITX add a Milar liner or two around the shot column. Make certain that the shot does not rise above the wad petals.

Mark

[Hammer Fan]

I think it could be very possible that ITX or any of the non-tox shots that contain tungsten could scratch, or at the very least erode the chamber and choke cones over time. You definitely want to protect the barrel from the shot as much as possible like Mark suggested.

Many of these newer shot manufacturers promote how their shot is softer than the steel barrels they are used in. There is a big difference between crushing a pellet in a hardness tester, and the abrasive qualities of what the shot is made from. None of them bring up this point, but ITX, Nice-shot and some others all contain tungsten, which is much harder than any shotgun barrel. They are alloyed with other metals so the pellet itself can be crushed and be promoted as "soft" but the powdered tungsten in the pellets can wear on constriction points in the bore just like a sandblaster if not well protected by wads.

As of now there are only two shot materials that I know of that can be used "naked" (i.e. no wad protection) in guns without fear of scratching: Lead and Bismuth. We need more.

[Don Kaas]

I have shot a few hundred rounds of 1 1/4oz Federal 3" Magnum Tungsten Polymer shot through my #2 frame 20g 3" damascus DH. It is choked a very tight .029 in both of its slim barrels. I have noticed no ill effects except on the ducks. I have also shot hundreds of rounds of Bismuth and Tungsten Matrix loads through a variety of damascus barreled guns in the pigeon ring without incident. Mr. Grilley "thinks" differently but properly wadded per BP's direction I would have no issue shooting ITX or Niceshot in a damascus gun.

[Hammer Fan]

Originally Posted by Don Kaas

I have shot a few hundred rounds of 1 1/4oz Federal 3" Magnum Tungsten Polymer shot through my #2 frame 20g 3" damascus DH. It is choked a very tight .029 in both of its slim barrels. I have noticed no ill effects except on the ducks. I have also shot hundreds of rounds of Bismuth and Tungsten Matrix loads through a variety of damascus barreled guns in the pigeon ring without incident. Mr. Grilley "thinks" differently but properly wadded per BP's direction I would have no issue shooting ITX or Niceshot in a damascus gun.

We seem to have stated the same thing. As long as you use proper wad protection (like we both stated) using any of the tungsten based shot should not be an issue. Not sure why you need to point out that I "think" differently when it seems we have said the exact same thing.

I brought up the point about shooting the shot "naked" since some of us use card wads in our antique guns, with no modern wads to protect the barrel or shot. If someone is willing to put a few hundred rounds of tungsten based shot through their D grade damascus barrels with no wad protection to find out if it will scratch them they have my blessing, I'm not willing to risk mine.

While working as a machinist and mold maker, I use a variety of different abrasives on almost a daily basis, including many that are embedded in a "soft" media such as a polymer. Tungsten combined with anything is going to be abrasive to all types of steel barrels, no matter how soft the finished pellet is. For example tungsten on the Mohs scale of hardness is listed at 7.5. Steel runs between 4-4.5. The Mohs scale is not as specific as other hardness testing scales, but it is good for general comparisons. Lead is listed at 1.5. As long as the barrel is well protected by wadding (like all of us suggested) it's use should not be a problem. The point about proper wadding can not be stressed enough. Follow the manufacturer's loading recipes to the "T".

[Big Friend Ten (BFT)]

Forrest,

Would the finely ground tungston in Nice Shot or Kent TM (KTM), both having very soft pellets, scratch a damascus or early fluid steel barrel or would it slowly polish it? I've got a couple old Parkers that could use a little barrel polishing!

All kidding aside, you make a good point but I wonder how many shots using an unprotected shot column could be shot before any measurable difference in a bore could be measured?

Mark

[Bill Murphy]

If someone were willing to sacrifice a bad Parker Damascus or Twist Steel 10 gauge with tight chokes, I would be willing to sacrifice 100 3 1/2" ten gauge steel shot factory loads in a "damage test". The bores can be seriously pitted as long as the choke area is clean enough to show scratching. Maybe we can put this question to bed.

[Hammer Fan]

Originally Posted by Mark Ouellette

Forrest,

Would the finely ground tungston in Nice Shot or Kent TM (KTM), both having very soft pellets, scratch a damascus or early fluid steel barrel or would it slowly polish it? I've got a couple old Parkers that could use a little barrel polishing!

All kidding aside, you make a good point but I wonder how many shots using an unprotected shot column could be shot before any measurable difference in a bore could be measured?

Mark

Good one I know you are kidding but intentionally shooting some sort of abrasive through your barrel would be similar to the "fire lapping" process that many rifle shooters are familiar with.

The problem with doing this in a shotgun barrel, is that the erosion is going to be at the constrictions in the bore, such as the mouth of the forcing cone and choke. Both areas are difficult to actually measure, or even closely inspect by eye. I am even more concerned with Parker guns in particular. According to The Parker Story, the shape of the choke is not a simple cone like in modern shotguns. Instead it is a parabolic curve shape, which would be much more susceptible to erosion.

As far as how long would it take shooting unprotected tungsten based shot before you would notice damage to the bore, well that's the $64,000 question. It might be 1, 100's or a 1000. The problem is that it will undoubtedly cause wear in areas first that are not easily noticed.

This would make for a very interesting experiment if someone has an old damascus barreled Parker that they don't mind potentially ruining. One could fire 100's of rounds of unprotected tungsten based shot through it and take chamber and choke castings to determine how quickly dimentional changes are taking place.

But now we are probably getting too far off topic. The bottom line is that if proper wadding is used with any of these shot materials, this discussion should be moot. Happy shooting.

[Stepmac]

My question is, what constitutes "proper wadding"?

[Blind Dog]

A soid, strong plastic cup (like Black Cloud) that doesn't release the shot till it clears the muzzle. Black Cloud has a sort of parachute base that opens after it leaves the muzzle letting the shot move on; at least that's the theory. Chokes don't mean much as long as the wad can move through with little or no hinderance.