W&C Scott 8 Gauge

[Mike Franzen]

Try asking John Campbell. He goes by Kensal Rise on the forum. If anybody would know it’s probably him. Keep us posted on what you find out. I live just up the highway from you in Alexandria. We should get together and shoot sometime.

[Mike of the Mountain]

Art, I'm curious as to what the LOP and DAC/DAH are? Cool looking gun. Thanks for sharing this with us.

[ArtS]

Originally Posted by Mike Koneski

Art, I'm curious as to what the LOP and DAC/DAH are? Cool looking gun. Thanks for sharing this with us.

Drops are about 1-3/4" and 2-3/4". LOP is 14-1/2".

It weighs less than 10# and balances rignt on the hinge pin. It feels incredibly good, sort of like a SBT with more drop, but it is more dynamic because there is no forward weight bias. It really would make a nice all around gun.

The two things in my mind that really stand out are the action sculpting and the lock/hammer. The action appears to be a double forging that has been totally sculpted in an asymmetric pattern. The left side was reduced in three distinct steps, and the right side left closer to original to match the lock, but the firing pin angled to strike the center barrel. The hammer is massive compared to my 10 gauge Parkers, but comfortable and very easy to cock. The feel of cocking has that certain smoothness and precision you feel with really high quality lockwork. The operation itself takes some getting used to. Due to the double angled firing pin and the period of the lock, you need to return the lock to half cock before opening the action. It will open without it, but it is hard on the mechanism. The move to the half notch is probably 75% of the total travel. This seems odd, until you realize that the half cock is a safety notch and the movement on to the full cock position is only about 1/2" and is very light and fast to accomplish.

One other thing to note is that I have seen several comments over the years that British and European 8 gauges seem to have larger chambers than the Parkers etc. I spent quite a bit of effort getting ready to try this gun and finally came up with a die to reduce the industrial shells. I also tried removing the outer brass layer from the Winchester industrials, but this left them with a thin rim. After shooting a couple of slug loads I, like an idiot, tried the industrial shells and found that they fit perfectly without alteration. The condition of this gun is incredibly original and the bore diameter is correct for an 8 bore, so I have to presume that this was the normal chambering.

All in all it is and interesting gun, and I want to shoot some trap and clays with it. Being a rifle kind of guy since I was a kid, every time I pick it up and cock it, an image goes through my mind of a guy in sweltering heat with a pith helmet, a large blackpowder bore rifle and an elephant with huge tusks. It is from an era not long after and related to a gun that a colonial hunter would have used. It makes you pause to think that U.S. Grant was the president when this gun was delivered to it's owner.

I have only owned two guns I thought might be worthy of a magazine article.

The first was the absolutely highest quality Collath I have ever seen, in person or in print. It was covered everywhere in high quality engraving, a briar stock, numerous gold inlays and lettering. The barrels were a work of Damascus art, struck to an extremely light weight, and with longitudinal reinforcing ribs on the back 8 inches of the barrels. These were milled into the barrel surface and the metal removed around them.I thought when I bought it that it was a 14 Gauge and that someone had opened the chambers to 12 Gauge. I found out after I sold it that it was likely one of the proprietary Collath chamberings, of which that was the most common; a 12 guage shell designed for a 14 bore barrel.

This Scott 8 gauge is the other due to it's quality, condition and "oddness".

[Bill Murphy]

I didn't reread the entire thread, but "This is a pigeon gun". I will wait for further comment.

[ArtS]

Originally Posted by Bill Murphy

I didn't reread the entire thread, but "This is a pigeon gun". I will wait for further comment.

That's the first mention I have heard of a Pigeon gun. I have never run across mention of such a model in the catalog reprints I have access to. In fact, I found no listing for any high grade single barrels. From the address on the barrel, this is one of the two high grades they made at the time. It is true it has no safety, but being a single I don't know if that would be an indicator. It was my belief that all pigeon shoots at that time used a two shot rule to down the birds, precluding a single. I that was not the case, it may well be. I would be puzzled by the cylinder bore barrel however. From the condition of the gun,measurements and examination of the bore, I believe it was made this way.

I still believe it was sold as an all around gun someone in the northeast US could use for small game, decoyed water fowl and deer or bear with ball or buck. The chambering/choke would be amenable to all of these.

[Bill Murphy]

Two shot Hurlingham rules came later than the big bore pigeon gun era. The big bore era started in the UK during the percussion period. The latest Holt's auction has several guns from the big bore era. I think choke was not heard of at that time. Holt's does a good job of identifying a "pigeon gun" versus regular sporting guns.

[ArtS]

Originally Posted by Bill Murphy

Two shot Hurlingham rules came later than the big bore pigeon gun era. The big bore era started in the UK during the percussion period. The latest Holt's auction has several guns from the big bore era. I think choke was not heard of at that time. Holt's does a good job of identifying a "pigeon gun" versus regular sporting guns.

Good information. I didn't know about the timing of the rule change. Just in the last 2 days, I took another look at the catalog from 1872, then at the book (can't remember the author; don't have it with me) that is a history of W&C Scott. Pertinent facts from combining both sources, some of which I remembered, were that:

1)Scott, while they would build whatever you wanted, only listed three qualities of guns, designated A, B, and C in 1872. The Premier designation for top grade and special guns was introduced a few years later. A and B quality guns were the only ones that carried the full London Castle Rd. address. The more common guns were labeled just London. I am inclined to believe by the engraving, wood and rib address that this is a B quality gun,

2)Scott recognized 5 classes of shotguns. Basically Upland, Light Upland, Pigeon, Waterfowl and Light Waterfowl. I am sure they always built guns for these purposes, but the actual designations according to the history were implemented in 1876, I believe. Technically, there were no designations at the time the gun was sold. Collectors often classify guns on a retroactive basis, even though they didn't exist at the time of manufacture. Sort of like the use of the Daly Empire and Superior tags applied to guns made decades before the designation was implemented by the company.

3)Most telling, I was showing the gun to a visitor last night and took a closer look at the engraving. I used a good light and magnifier and examined it carefully. I noticed that the only engraving on the gun was floral style engraving, except for a small figure under the hammer pivot on the lock plate, It turned out to be a well executed figure of some sort of retriever coming out of the water carrying a duck dangling from it's mouth. Careful reveals that the duck even has a ring around it's throat.

To me, that was the tipping point. It can't be a coinsident that the only non-floral piece would be a retriever with a duck instead of a pigeon in flight or something similar. I am going with a light waterfowl style of gun. This would make sense for a gun sold along the seashore of New England where waterfowl hunting over decoys was a major sport.

Of course, that's just my guess.

None of this explains the fact of a single barrel style mentioned neither in the company full catalog from the year of manufacture nor the history book of the Make.

[Mike of the Mountain]

Originally Posted by Arthur Shaffer

Drops are about 1-3/4" and 2-3/4". LOP is 14-1/2".

It weighs less than 10# and balances rignt on the hinge pin. It feels incredibly good, sort of like a SBT with more drop, but it is more dynamic because there is no forward weight bias. It really would make a nice all around gun.

The two things in my mind that really stand out are the action sculpting and the lock/hammer. The action appears to be a double forging that has been totally sculpted in an asymmetric pattern. The left side was reduced in three distinct steps, and the right side left closer to original to match the lock, but the firing pin angled to strike the center barrel. The hammer is massive compared to my 10 gauge Parkers, but comfortable and very easy to cock. The feel of cocking has that certain smoothness and precision you feel with really high quality lockwork. The operation itself takes some getting used to. Due to the double angled firing pin and the period of the lock, you need to return the lock to half cock before opening the action. It will open without it, but it is hard on the mechanism. The move to the half notch is probably 75% of the total travel. This seems odd, until you realize that the half cock is a safety notch and the movement on to the full cock position is only about 1/2" and is very light and fast to accomplish.

One other thing to note is that I have seen several comments over the years that British and European 8 gauges seem to have larger chambers than the Parkers etc. I spent quite a bit of effort getting ready to try this gun and finally came up with a die to reduce the industrial shells. I also tried removing the outer brass layer from the Winchester industrials, but this left them with a thin rim. After shooting a couple of slug loads I, like an idiot, tried the industrial shells and found that they fit perfectly without alteration. The condition of this gun is incredibly original and the bore diameter is correct for an 8 bore, so I have to presume that this was the normal chambering.

All in all it is and interesting gun, and I want to shoot some trap and clays with it. Being a rifle kind of guy since I was a kid, every time I pick it up and cock it, an image goes through my mind of a guy in sweltering heat with a pith helmet, a large blackpowder bore rifle and an elephant with huge tusks. It is from an era not long after and related to a gun that a colonial hunter would have used. It makes you pause to think that U.S. Grant was the president when this gun was delivered to it's owner.

I have only owned two guns I thought might be worthy of a magazine article.

The first was the absolutely highest quality Collath I have ever seen, in person or in print. It was covered everywhere in high quality engraving, a briar stock, numerous gold inlays and lettering. The barrels were a work of Damascus art, struck to an extremely light weight, and with longitudinal reinforcing ribs on the back 8 inches of the barrels. These were milled into the barrel surface and the metal removed around them.I thought when I bought it that it was a 14 Gauge and that someone had opened the chambers to 12 Gauge. I found out after I sold it that it was likely one of the proprietary Collath chamberings, of which that was the most common; a 12 guage shell designed for a 14 bore barrel.

This Scott 8 gauge is the other due to it's quality, condition and "oddness".

THAT IS AN AWESOME GUN!!!

[ArtS]

Originally Posted by Mike Franzen

Try asking John Campbell. He goes by Kensal Rise on the forum. If anybody would know it’s probably him. Keep us posted on what you find out. I live just up the highway from you in Alexandria. We should get together and shoot sometime.

Long drive. I live in Lexington KY, not VA.

[6pt-Sika]

Originally Posted by Arthur Shaffer

Long drive. I live in Lexington KY, not VA.

I think he meant Alexandria KY just south of Cincinnati.