11 Gauge

[Researcher]

I did a scan of the available Union Metallic Cartridge Co. catalogs/price sheets/broadsides. The 1873 price list offers brass shells from 8 to 14 gauge. The 1877 E. Remington & Sons catalog offers both A & B 10- and 12-gauge brass shells and 16B brass shells. I only found No. 11 brass shells offered in the 1880 and 1882 (No. 11B) UMC catalogs.

1880 empty brass shotshells.png

Everything 1884 and later no No. 11 shells. Nothing I've found offers a No. 11 paper shell.

[Pa SxS]

Art, can you please point me to the order books and stock books that show this? I haven't seen this documented in my 10 years of looking at the records.

This situation was so widespread that in March 1892, the company annotated the order books to set a policy that the standard from that point forward for 12 gauge would be to use true bore gauge barrels. If these were not used, the gun ws to be stamped with an "O" to signify the "old" or "original" size. The stock books soon after carried a similar notice for the 10 gauge.

[ArtS]

Originally Posted by Chuck Bishop

Art, can you please point me to the order books and stock books that show this? I haven't seen this documented in my 10 years of looking at the records.

I of course haven't seen the actual books. The info I gave was a semi-quote from the Parker Story. I don't have Volume II with me, but the note I took says it is on page 517 of Volume II. It is a reasonably complete discussion and quotes some typical bore sizes etc. This subject is tied to other discussions of brass shell dimensions. This discussion runs at least through page 523 and includes actual measurements of bores from some early guns that are stated to be totally original.

The chart on page 519 lists bores as typical modern sizes, and these are quoted by a lot of people as standard for Parkers. This is only strictly true after 1920 I believe. Up through around 1880 it probably wasn't true, and may or may not have been from the 1800's to sometime closer to 1920.

There also appears in that book a picture of a tag distributed with guns of that vintage which gave Parkers optimum load for the 10 gauge and they recommended loading the shells with 9ga over powder and overshot wads.

I have also been told in a response about stampings that one of the marks with no known meaning is an "O" found on some 12 gauges. If the Parker Story info is accurate, that could well explain that mark. If some members have O marked 12 gauge barrels, it would be interesting to see their bore measurements.

One thing I have never seen is any similar discussion about the 16 gauge. I have one from 1901, but it is a standard 16 ga bore size. If any lifter model 16 owners have measured their bores, it would be interesting to know if any are overbored.

[Dean Romig]

Originally Posted by Arthur Shaffer

One thing I have never seen is any similar discussion about the 16 gauge. I have one from 1901, but it is a standard 16 ga bore size. If any lifter model 16 owners have measured their bores, it would be interesting to know if any are overbored.

My 16 gauge D Lifter 18719 measures .664” and .665” the entire length of the bore excluding the choke constriction.





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[ArtS]

I thought I would dredge up this old thread because there was an interesting report in the most recent Parker Pages under Parkers In Pulp for 1893 which relates to this subject. I again read the section in Volume II of TPS concerning bores starting on page 516 and noticed that it quoted an article from 1873 applauding Parker for overboring their barrels. In the Parker Pages this month, there is an August 12, 1893 report from American Field covering the large display of Parker guns (300+) at the Chicago Columbian Exposition in 1893, which was overseen by DuBrey. A major talking point of the story was that all the Parkers at the time of the exhibit were made to true bore size and that up to that time, they had used barrels one gauge larger, along with the matching wads. The comment was made that this change made them perform better with Nitro powders (an allusion, I supect, to paper shells). In reading the article, it seems obvious that the article was based primarily on an interview with DuBrey who was peddling the corporate line. Given the importance of this exposition, the comments made, and the fact that this was only 17 months after the 12 gauge bore and "o" stamp comments were entered into the shop books in March 1892 according to TPS, I suspect that this was a much more considered change than just being related to barrel supply and industry standardization. It would appear that Parker made the change based on customer perception of modern trends in ammo and their competitive position. It would still be interesting from a scholarly standpoint if the statements concerning the March 1892 note and the subsequent 10 gauge note could be verified. It would certainly make it easier to evaluate the originality of pre and post 1892 barrels in a more definitive manner.