12ga. 5/8 load

[Paul Harm]

Danial, Gamaliel was bought out by Brownells. Where would one go for any reloading info from them ?

[Bill Jolliff]

Originally Posted by Paul Harm

Wish I would have seen Bills post a week ago before we got our reloading order. I would have ordered some extra lite. Bill, you probably already know that Rem, Win, Cheddite, and a couple of other mild primers will all interchange without changing pressures enough to worry about at the pressures we're reloading at. Those Remington primers [ and I'm a big Remington fan and collector ] are awful expensive. I too have shot 3/4oz loads for years but you guys have got me thinking.

Hi Paul,

Agreed, those Remington STS209 primers are expensive. I've lucked out buying them. I got 4 bricks of them, 4,000 primers, at a gun show for $30.00 per brick. And I found about another 1500 at a small local gun shop for about $30 per brick. And I got 5 bricks of them online for $38.00 each plus shipping, etc. which isn't too painful.

A lot of my shooting is with my early A grade 12 gauge Fox. Turns out the firing pins when the hammers are down extend into the standing breech, and therefore into the primers about 0.062". About 0.010" more than a couple other doubles I shoot.

Thus after both barrels are fired into Winchester primers for example, the gun is hard to break open because the firing pins are a little too far into the fired primers. It doesn't do that with the harder Remington's so the gun breaks open nice and easy.

I don't use Cheddite's because I think they are just slightly larger in diameter than USA primers and make the primer pocket just a little bigger so that if I go back to USA primers, those would be a little loose. It actually probably doesn't amount too much tho.

I do use Winchester 209's for my other loads at a much more reasonable price. And that helps I guess.

Bill

[Paul Harm]

Firing pins should never extend past the breech face in any break open gun. You have something wrong with the gun if they do. If they do, you run the possibility of the gun firing when it's closed. I don't think you lucked out, at least what I'm use to paying for primers. That's 190 or $200/5000. I'm use to anywhere from 112 to 135 depending on the brand. 209 Cheddites that are sold in the USA are the same size as our primers - Win, Rem, Fed, CCI, etc. I've loaded many shells with Win or Fed primers after using Cheddites with no problems. They are a little softer and guns with firing pins that strike on a angle will many times pierce them causing then to blow. I have a Parker and Remington hammergun that will blow Chedittes so I've gone to Win primers and paid the extra $20/5000 over the Cheddites. I have a friend who doesn't like recoil - he may like your 5/8 loads.

[Woodcock survey]

Paul i believe he is using a Fox and mine do the same thing. When you break the gun and cock it the hammers are withdrawn and do not protrude from the breech face when closing on a loaded shell.

[Paul Harm]

OK. So you're saying the hammers go back, but maybe the firing pins don't have springs to keep them back, so they loosely stick out. I'm assuming you can push them back in if you wanted. I have a Remington hammerless that the pins stick out when opening and the firing pins want to stay stuck in the primer making it hard to open. Once open they're back in. You can see the drag marks across the shell. Someday I'm going to have to open it up and see if it has broken springs, or maybe dirty. Or maybe they should have put springs in and didn't.

[Bill Jolliff]

Paul,

What Dan/Woodcock Survey is saying about Fox's is true. The firing pins are an integral part of the hammer and not separate and do not retract after firing. They stay in place in the primer of that round that just got shot until the lever is pushed to the right and begin opening the barrels which starts to cock the hammer which pulls the firing pin back.

You can take the fore end off, remove the barrels, release the lever back to center, push the SAFE OFF and pull the triggers. The firing pins will be extended thru the standing breech and you can't push them back in with your finger. You would be pushing against the main hammer spring.

And you don't have to cock the hammers to get the barrels back on like an L C. Smith.

I suppose it's fixable but I've had this A grade for more than 50 years and have "never turned a screw" as a one time dealer in Lancaster PA used to say. And I don't think previous owners have either.

So I just shoot reloads out of this gun that have Remington primers in them.

[Kensal Rise]

Timing is everything, as they say.

One of the key functions of a hammerless double is to retract the firing pins/tumblers in the first few degrees of cocking arc/movement of opening. Some designs do this better and faster than others. Those that don't tend to leave a drag mark on the fired primers. Especially primers with soft caps.

One gun design that is very efficient in this fast cocking action is the classic Anson & Deeley.

[Paul Harm]

I think most hammerless guns are " Anson & Deeley " design, but I do agree some cock the hammers quicker than others. I have seven 1894 Remingtons and only the highest grade one, a C grade, cocks the hammers a little slower sometimes. It must be right on the edge of doing it quick enough. About once or twice out of a hundred shells will it allow the hammers to drag on the shell and be hard to open.

[Kensal Rise]

While many "boxlocks" resemble the Anson & Deeley, few are mechanically the same. At least prior to the patent's expiration.

The H&R double is one exception. It IS a licensed A&D boxlock.

Otherwise, the Parker, Fox, Remington and more differ in key areas. And it is certain of these differences that often result in timing issues with firing pin/tumbler retraction.

[Paul Harm]

Well, I know a Parker isn't, but someone will have to educate me if a Remington isn't. Same with a Ithaca. There's a hammer, hammer spring, sear, sear spring, and the lever that cocks the hammer. That's it. The simple A&D action. At least that's my understanding of the A&D action. Maybe I don't understand some finer points that have escaped my attention.