Circa 1900-05 Live Bird gun

[Drew Hause]

E.D. Fulford, winner of the 1898 GAH at Live Birds with a Remington had a different opinion



"TRAP FACTS FROM FULFORD"
Sporting Life, Utica, N. Y., March 14, 1898
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrar.../SL3026025.pdf
A gun with two sets of barrels, both the same length and weight, is to be recommended. Have trap set bored to shoot 70 per cent, of load in a 30-inch circle, at 40 yards. Have field set with right barrel cylinder and left barrel modified choke. Get a gun with drop and cast-off that fits you, and one that you can hit the objects with. The average man needs about 2 3/4 inches drop at butt, 1 1/2 inches drop at comb, 14 1/4 inches long, full pistol grip, weight 7 1/2 to 8 pounds. The Remington Arms Company without doubt or question produce the best and strongest gun for the money made in the world to-day.

Apparently that is what Hunter Arms thought; from the 1910 catalog and fairly late since the last GAH at Live Birds was 1902
"The straight grip admits of the most rapid work possible and supplies a want long felt by sportsmen."

[Drew Hause]

1895 and only one straight grip. The DuPont Cup was at Live Birds

The World Record squad: Harmon Dando- 20, Smith; (a glowering) E.D. Fulford– 20, Greener; Ferd. Van Dyke– 20, Winchester; John Connor– 20, Daly; Sim Glover– 20, Greener; Charles Young– 19, Young Repeater

[CSL]

Originally Posted by Frank Srebro

Here's a cut taken from the American Field newspaper of the 22 gents who shot straight (25/25) to qualify for the miss-and-out shootoff at the 1901 Live Bird GAH.

Some time ago I bought an original silver albumen picture of this scene with the photographer's logo and names of the shooters by row and place inscribed on its matting.

In case someone wonders, I won't post copies of this original picture or of the individual shooters/places as it would be so easy for gents to copy, and next I know I'll see them for sale on E Bay etc.

This may the only original picture of Ansley H Fox that's been found. Some day I'll figure out what to do to keep it honest for posterity.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Frank, The 1901 GAH Live Bird shoot photo you posted with Ansley Fox, F Parmalee, and others is a great image. If you have an original photo of this event, your concerns about copies and modern day ebay profiteers is very well founded.

Not long ago there was a well known photo Re-Print seller who was actually caught selling images on ebay that he had copied from the cover of the Parker Pages publication. It would have been a better scam had he removed all remnants of the "Parker Pages" title letters from the image before attempting to pass the photo off as his own. The interesting thing, he was advertising his wares on the PGCA web-site at the same time he was copying Parker Pages images and selling them on ebay - WoW!...

Nowadays, anything the ebay opportunists think they can copy and make a buck on is fair game. If you have an original old photo with unique subject matter that falls into the wrong hands, they can destroy the integrity and value of that image overnight with a stack of washed out low resolution $4.99 cheap copies... It's good you are taking care of your original 1901 GAH Live Bird shoot photo, and do be careful who you give copies to...

This is a great thread with some outstanding old Live Bird Shoot information, sorry I arrived late... As always, thanks to all who contributed.

Below are early images showing A.H. Fox at the Peters Cartridge Co sponsored Atlanta Gun Club event in October 1900. Reports mention Fox only lost 1 bird on the final day live bird shoot. Ansley is seen in a dark sweater at top holding up a box of shells and resting a pump-gun against his leg, his unique face and mustache always easy to find in a crowd.

Best, Chris ~ CSL
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[Bill Murphy]

Check out the gal holding a Model 97 Winchester trap gun. I wonder if she's Ansley's backup shooter.

[Drew Hause]

1 1/4 oz. with 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. was the standard Live Bird load in the U.S. 1895 - about 1900; and although Krupp, Siemens-Martin and Whitworth fluid steel barrels were available, certainly most guns were Damascus

Sporting Guns and Gunpowders, “Tests Of Strain On Breech Actions”, in Field, 1892
1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dram Bulk Smokeless Pressures in 2 3/4” case
https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA86
Long Tons/ sq. inch converted to PSI by Burrard’s formula

(Proof) with 6 1/4 Drams “Tower Proof” Black Powder and 1 2/3 oz. shot – 4.51 Tons = 14,034 psi
3 1/2 Drams Curtis & Harvey’s No. 4 T.S. Black Powder – 4.2 Tons = 12,992 psi
“Schultze” – 4.28 Tons = 13,260 psi
(In a 3” case, with additional wadding the pressure for “Schultze” was 4.93 = 15,445 psi )
“E.C.” – 4.92 Tons = 15,411 psi

Note the SAAMI 2 3/4" 12g Max. is 11,500 psi

and BTW 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. (1275 fps) in an 8# gun = 27 ft/lbs free recoil
1 1/8 oz. at 1200 fps in today's 10# trap guns = 16.2 ft/lbs

[Cold Spring]

Originally Posted by Drew Hause

1 1/4 oz. with 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. was the standard Live Bird load in the U.S. 1895 - about 1900; and although Krupp, Siemens-Martin and Whitworth fluid steel barrels were available, certainly most guns were Damascus

Sporting Guns and Gunpowders, “Tests Of Strain On Breech Actions”, in Field, 1892
1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dram Bulk Smokeless Pressures in 2 3/4” case
https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA86
Long Tons/ sq. inch converted to PSI by Burrard’s formula

(Proof) with 6 1/4 Drams “Tower Proof” Black Powder and 1 2/3 oz. shot – 4.51 Tons = 14,034 psi
3 1/2 Drams Curtis & Harvey’s No. 4 T.S. Black Powder – 4.2 Tons = 12,992 psi
“Schultze” – 4.28 Tons = 13,260 psi
(In a 3” case, with additional wadding the pressure for “Schultze” was 4.93 = 15,445 psi )
“E.C.” – 4.92 Tons = 15,411 psi

Note the SAAMI 2 3/4" 12g Max. is 11,500 psi

and BTW 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. (1275 fps) in an 8# gun = 27 ft/lbs free recoil
1 1/8 oz. at 1200 fps in today's 10# trap guns = 16.2 ft/lbs

Drew, not to get anything started here again but I read that you're using "Burrard's conversion" factor to come up with those psi numbers. Can you please elaborate how that conversion relates/applies to period American lead crusher pressures, and from there to modern transducer measurement? Thank you.

Interesting that Askins wrote extensively in 1929 about American shotshell loading and pressure testing and although I read his volume many times I don't remember seeing any reference to Burrard nor anything other than lead crusher pressure in tons per sq inch. Let's take just one number from his chart for maximum loads of DuPont's Bulk smokeless as provided by its Brandywine Lab, i.e., 12-gauge 1-1/4 ounce and 3-1/2 drams shows an average of 4.70 tons. Now, correlating with the data here in the quote that would be about 14,750 psi. That doesn't make sense to me

[Drew Hause]

Yes, those numbers are Burrard's conversion.

The long explanation starts just past 1/2 way down here Frank
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...UOZEFU/preview

Here's the short version for us non-deep thinkin' types
Burrard's conversion formula for Tons/sq. inch as measured by LUP is probably close to modern piezo transducer measured Pounds/sq. inch (PSI).
Since we cannot KNOW the conversion for PSI as measured by LUP to PSI as measured by transducers, adding 10 - 14% to the load pressures reported as PSI by LUP seems reasonable.

In a 1927 Western Cartridge Co. flyer “Super-X The Long Range Load” by Capt. Chas. Askins the 12g “Duck Load” (not specified but presumed to be 1 1/4 oz. Super-X “Field”) is described as 3 1/2 dram (38.5 gr. Powder; also not specified but no doubt DuPont Oval) at 1400 fps (at the muzzle rather than 3 feet) and 1000 fps at 40 yards, with a breech pressure of 3 3/4 tons or about 11,480 psi by Burrard’s conversion.
All of Coxe's pressure curves are in the doc also.

[Cold Spring]

Thank you Drew, and how about Burrard's conversion of the average 4.70 tons/sq inch on the DuPont's load provided by its Brandylwine Lab? Wouldn't that be about 14,750 psi per Burrard? If so …. isn't that well above the average 12-gauge service max of yesteryear and today?

[Drew Hause]

This is the pressure curve from “Smokeless Shotgun Powders: Their Development, Composition and Ballistic Characteristics” by Wallace H Coxe; E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Co., 1927, a DuPont Oval Pamphlet, p.20.
Dram Eq. is listed in the text as 3 but is more likely 3 3/4 compared to the 1928 data.
Charge was 1 1/4 oz. Pressure is expressed in Long Tons.
“All Powders Loaded To Develop The Same Energy” was added to a similar chart in 1931.



Using Burrard’s estimated Tons Lead Crusher Pressure (Cp) conversion to PSI (pound force per square inch): (Cp x 1.5) - .5 = TSI; TSI X 2240 = PSI
Ballistite maximum pressure at 1” was 4.9 Long Tons = 15,344 psi
Schultze at 1 3/4” was 4.5 Long Tons = 14,000 psi
DuPont Bulk at 1 2/3” was 4.1 Long Tons = 12,656 psi
FFFg (likely proof load) at 1 1/2” was 3.8 Long Tons = 11,648 psi
DuPont Oval at 2” was 3.5 Long Tons = 10,640 psi

Could you please scan and post the chart to which Askins was referring in 1929?

This is the 1933 chart; now expressed as PSI measured by LUP.



The pressure curves are for a 3 Dr. Eq. 1 1/4 oz. load.
Pressure by modern piezo transducers would be 10-14% higher.
DuPont Bulk = 9,600 psi
FFFg = 9,000 psi
DuPont Oval = 8,700 psi
DuPont MX = 9,800 psi

[Cold Spring]

Drew, I don't have access to a scanner where I'm at right bow. Here's a cell phone pic of that DuPont's Brandywine Lab data cited by Askins. See the 12-gauge/3-1/2 dram/1-1/4 ounce loads of its Bulk smokeless I referred to earlier.

frank