Circa 1900-05 Live Bird gun

[Cold Spring]

Here's a cut taken from the American Field newspaper of the 22 gents who shot straight (25/25) to qualify for the miss-and-out shootoff at the 1901 Live Bird GAH. Sorry the size/quality of this AF pic copy isn't the best when you expand it. Picture was taken on April 13, 1901, and was no doubt supplied by Interstate to the sporting journals. As it turned out the next day, the Live Bird GAH winner was Griffith who fielded a Parker. 2nd place Morrison with a Winchester. 3rd and 4th places were also taken by Parkers, Bennett and Barto respectively.

Some time ago I bought an original silver albumen picture of this scene with the photographer's logo and names of the shooters by row and place inscribed on its matting. It was spotted in a gallery near Philly and I recognized the grouping and ran to get it the next day. It's probably the only original picture of the straights extant and I keep it in a dark/humidity controlled vault. But with that said I often take it to SxS events in the east and if anyone wants to see the original, let me know where and when and I'll let you know if I plan to be there. The clarity of this original picture is absolutely amazing due to that silver albumen photo process and when digitized I can see the weave in Ansley's sweater and the detail of the pigeon pin on his cool hat (front row, 4th from left). Also that the gent standing behind and to the right of him is wearing pinstriped pants. In case someone wonders, I won't post copies of this original picture or of the individual shooters/places as it would be so easy for gents to copy, and next I know I'll see them for sale on E Bay etc.

This may the only original picture of Ansley H Fox that's been found. Some day I'll figure out what to do to keep it honest for posterity. Just about the end of an era with the "Who's who" of Live Bird champs in 1901.

[Ed Blake]

Is there a way to sell prints?

[CSL]

Originally Posted by Frank Srebro

Here's a cut taken from the American Field newspaper of the 22 gents who shot straight (25/25) to qualify for the miss-and-out shootoff at the 1901 Live Bird GAH.

Some time ago I bought an original silver albumen picture of this scene with the photographer's logo and names of the shooters by row and place inscribed on its matting.

In case someone wonders, I won't post copies of this original picture or of the individual shooters/places as it would be so easy for gents to copy, and next I know I'll see them for sale on E Bay etc.

This may the only original picture of Ansley H Fox that's been found. Some day I'll figure out what to do to keep it honest for posterity.

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Frank, The 1901 GAH Live Bird shoot photo you posted with Ansley Fox, F Parmalee, and others is a great image. If you have an original photo of this event, your concerns about copies and modern day ebay profiteers is very well founded.

Not long ago there was a well known photo Re-Print seller who was actually caught selling images on ebay that he had copied from the cover of the Parker Pages publication. It would have been a better scam had he removed all remnants of the "Parker Pages" title letters from the image before attempting to pass the photo off as his own. The interesting thing, he was advertising his wares on the PGCA web-site at the same time he was copying Parker Pages images and selling them on ebay - WoW!...

Nowadays, anything the ebay opportunists think they can copy and make a buck on is fair game. If you have an original old photo with unique subject matter that falls into the wrong hands, they can destroy the integrity and value of that image overnight with a stack of washed out low resolution $4.99 cheap copies... It's good you are taking care of your original 1901 GAH Live Bird shoot photo, and do be careful who you give copies to...

This is a great thread with some outstanding old Live Bird Shoot information, sorry I arrived late... As always, thanks to all who contributed.

Below are early images showing A.H. Fox at the Peters Cartridge Co sponsored Atlanta Gun Club event in October 1900. Reports mention Fox only lost 1 bird on the final day live bird shoot. Ansley is seen in a dark sweater at top holding up a box of shells and resting a pump-gun against his leg, his unique face and mustache always easy to find in a crowd.

Best, Chris ~ CSL
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[Bill Murphy]

Check out the gal holding a Model 97 Winchester trap gun. I wonder if she's Ansley's backup shooter.

[Drew Hause]

1 1/4 oz. with 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. was the standard Live Bird load in the U.S. 1895 - about 1900; and although Krupp, Siemens-Martin and Whitworth fluid steel barrels were available, certainly most guns were Damascus

Sporting Guns and Gunpowders, “Tests Of Strain On Breech Actions”, in Field, 1892
1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dram Bulk Smokeless Pressures in 2 3/4” case
https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA86
Long Tons/ sq. inch converted to PSI by Burrard’s formula

(Proof) with 6 1/4 Drams “Tower Proof” Black Powder and 1 2/3 oz. shot – 4.51 Tons = 14,034 psi
3 1/2 Drams Curtis & Harvey’s No. 4 T.S. Black Powder – 4.2 Tons = 12,992 psi
“Schultze” – 4.28 Tons = 13,260 psi
(In a 3” case, with additional wadding the pressure for “Schultze” was 4.93 = 15,445 psi )
“E.C.” – 4.92 Tons = 15,411 psi

Note the SAAMI 2 3/4" 12g Max. is 11,500 psi

and BTW 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. (1275 fps) in an 8# gun = 27 ft/lbs free recoil
1 1/8 oz. at 1200 fps in today's 10# trap guns = 16.2 ft/lbs

[Cold Spring]

Originally Posted by Drew Hause

1 1/4 oz. with 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. was the standard Live Bird load in the U.S. 1895 - about 1900; and although Krupp, Siemens-Martin and Whitworth fluid steel barrels were available, certainly most guns were Damascus

Sporting Guns and Gunpowders, “Tests Of Strain On Breech Actions”, in Field, 1892
1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dram Bulk Smokeless Pressures in 2 3/4” case
https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA86
Long Tons/ sq. inch converted to PSI by Burrard’s formula

(Proof) with 6 1/4 Drams “Tower Proof” Black Powder and 1 2/3 oz. shot – 4.51 Tons = 14,034 psi
3 1/2 Drams Curtis & Harvey’s No. 4 T.S. Black Powder – 4.2 Tons = 12,992 psi
“Schultze” – 4.28 Tons = 13,260 psi
(In a 3” case, with additional wadding the pressure for “Schultze” was 4.93 = 15,445 psi )
“E.C.” – 4.92 Tons = 15,411 psi

Note the SAAMI 2 3/4" 12g Max. is 11,500 psi

and BTW 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. (1275 fps) in an 8# gun = 27 ft/lbs free recoil
1 1/8 oz. at 1200 fps in today's 10# trap guns = 16.2 ft/lbs

Drew, not to get anything started here again but I read that you're using "Burrard's conversion" factor to come up with those psi numbers. Can you please elaborate how that conversion relates/applies to period American lead crusher pressures, and from there to modern transducer measurement? Thank you.

Interesting that Askins wrote extensively in 1929 about American shotshell loading and pressure testing and although I read his volume many times I don't remember seeing any reference to Burrard nor anything other than lead crusher pressure in tons per sq inch. Let's take just one number from his chart for maximum loads of DuPont's Bulk smokeless as provided by its Brandywine Lab, i.e., 12-gauge 1-1/4 ounce and 3-1/2 drams shows an average of 4.70 tons. Now, correlating with the data here in the quote that would be about 14,750 psi. That doesn't make sense to me

[Drew Hause]

Yes, those numbers are Burrard's conversion.

The long explanation starts just past 1/2 way down here Frank
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...UOZEFU/preview

Here's the short version for us non-deep thinkin' types
Burrard's conversion formula for Tons/sq. inch as measured by LUP is probably close to modern piezo transducer measured Pounds/sq. inch (PSI).
Since we cannot KNOW the conversion for PSI as measured by LUP to PSI as measured by transducers, adding 10 - 14% to the load pressures reported as PSI by LUP seems reasonable.

In a 1927 Western Cartridge Co. flyer “Super-X The Long Range Load” by Capt. Chas. Askins the 12g “Duck Load” (not specified but presumed to be 1 1/4 oz. Super-X “Field”) is described as 3 1/2 dram (38.5 gr. Powder; also not specified but no doubt DuPont Oval) at 1400 fps (at the muzzle rather than 3 feet) and 1000 fps at 40 yards, with a breech pressure of 3 3/4 tons or about 11,480 psi by Burrard’s conversion.
All of Coxe's pressure curves are in the doc also.