Circa 1900-05 Live Bird gun

[John Davis]

Also, by 1900 clays had pretty much replaced live pigeons.

[John Davis]

That's not to say that they weren't still shooting live birds in the early 1900's but inanimate targets were becoming the preferred target. A shortage of live birds and a changing public opinion had begun to change the tide. The last Grand American Handicap at Live Birds was held in 1902. The first Grand American Handicap at Targets was held in 1900.

April 11, 1891, American Field: “An Ornithological Discovery. - Boston, Mass. - Editor American Field:- The following from the Portland Daily Press in reference to the new law in Maine for the prevention of pigeon shooting, will prove, I am sure, of great interest to your scientific readers, and possibly to trap shooters. A new species does not turn up every day in the week, and we must make the most of it when we get the chance.
‘We presume the intention of the framers of the law against pigeon shooting was not merely to put a stop to the shooting of pigeons, but also to prevent trap shooting of every kind in which live birds are used. Unfortunately, however, they specified pigeons and pigeons only, so that any other kind of bird may be used without violating the letter of the law. In a “shoot” which took place recently in this vicinity Peoria blackbirds were substituted for pigeons, and though the performance was just as barbarous a one as it would have been had pigeons been used, and just as contrary to good moral, still the law as it stands does not touch it. The law should be amended so as to cover all trap shooting in which live birds are used, no matter what their species.’
While some of your readers may possibly subscribe to our Portland brother’s ethics, they will hardly venture to do as much for his ornithology. This is a sad world, but in spite of the cruel treatment which Quiscalus versicolor Peoria experienced in Maine, it looks as though he had come to stay. Thos. Gradgrind.”

[todd allen]

Originally Posted by Dean Romig

The only 'common denominator' I have ever seen in describing a "live bird gun" is the absence of a safety. As was said, I believe by Darryl Corona, it is a widely misused term today.

Possibly a better descriptor would be 'competition gun'.

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If you can win a pigeon shoot with it, it's a pigeon gun.

[Bill Murphy]

Cruelty to "Peoria Blackbirds" is a sad state. Today I'm going to exhibit cruelty to White Flyers at our annual father's day shoot.

[Cold Spring]

Here's a cut taken from the American Field newspaper of the 22 gents who shot straight (25/25) to qualify for the miss-and-out shootoff at the 1901 Live Bird GAH. Sorry the size/quality of this AF pic copy isn't the best when you expand it. Picture was taken on April 13, 1901, and was no doubt supplied by Interstate to the sporting journals. As it turned out the next day, the Live Bird GAH winner was Griffith who fielded a Parker. 2nd place Morrison with a Winchester. 3rd and 4th places were also taken by Parkers, Bennett and Barto respectively.

Some time ago I bought an original silver albumen picture of this scene with the photographer's logo and names of the shooters by row and place inscribed on its matting. It was spotted in a gallery near Philly and I recognized the grouping and ran to get it the next day. It's probably the only original picture of the straights extant and I keep it in a dark/humidity controlled vault. But with that said I often take it to SxS events in the east and if anyone wants to see the original, let me know where and when and I'll let you know if I plan to be there. The clarity of this original picture is absolutely amazing due to that silver albumen photo process and when digitized I can see the weave in Ansley's sweater and the detail of the pigeon pin on his cool hat (front row, 4th from left). Also that the gent standing behind and to the right of him is wearing pinstriped pants. In case someone wonders, I won't post copies of this original picture or of the individual shooters/places as it would be so easy for gents to copy, and next I know I'll see them for sale on E Bay etc.

This may the only original picture of Ansley H Fox that's been found. Some day I'll figure out what to do to keep it honest for posterity. Just about the end of an era with the "Who's who" of Live Bird champs in 1901.

[Ed Blake]

Is there a way to sell prints?

[CSL]

Originally Posted by Frank Srebro

Here's a cut taken from the American Field newspaper of the 22 gents who shot straight (25/25) to qualify for the miss-and-out shootoff at the 1901 Live Bird GAH.

Some time ago I bought an original silver albumen picture of this scene with the photographer's logo and names of the shooters by row and place inscribed on its matting.

In case someone wonders, I won't post copies of this original picture or of the individual shooters/places as it would be so easy for gents to copy, and next I know I'll see them for sale on E Bay etc.

This may the only original picture of Ansley H Fox that's been found. Some day I'll figure out what to do to keep it honest for posterity.

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Frank, The 1901 GAH Live Bird shoot photo you posted with Ansley Fox, F Parmalee, and others is a great image. If you have an original photo of this event, your concerns about copies and modern day ebay profiteers is very well founded.

Not long ago there was a well known photo Re-Print seller who was actually caught selling images on ebay that he had copied from the cover of the Parker Pages publication. It would have been a better scam had he removed all remnants of the "Parker Pages" title letters from the image before attempting to pass the photo off as his own. The interesting thing, he was advertising his wares on the PGCA web-site at the same time he was copying Parker Pages images and selling them on ebay - WoW!...

Nowadays, anything the ebay opportunists think they can copy and make a buck on is fair game. If you have an original old photo with unique subject matter that falls into the wrong hands, they can destroy the integrity and value of that image overnight with a stack of washed out low resolution $4.99 cheap copies... It's good you are taking care of your original 1901 GAH Live Bird shoot photo, and do be careful who you give copies to...

This is a great thread with some outstanding old Live Bird Shoot information, sorry I arrived late... As always, thanks to all who contributed.

Below are early images showing A.H. Fox at the Peters Cartridge Co sponsored Atlanta Gun Club event in October 1900. Reports mention Fox only lost 1 bird on the final day live bird shoot. Ansley is seen in a dark sweater at top holding up a box of shells and resting a pump-gun against his leg, his unique face and mustache always easy to find in a crowd.

Best, Chris ~ CSL
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[Bill Murphy]

Check out the gal holding a Model 97 Winchester trap gun. I wonder if she's Ansley's backup shooter.

[Drew Hause]

1 1/4 oz. with 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. was the standard Live Bird load in the U.S. 1895 - about 1900; and although Krupp, Siemens-Martin and Whitworth fluid steel barrels were available, certainly most guns were Damascus

Sporting Guns and Gunpowders, “Tests Of Strain On Breech Actions”, in Field, 1892
1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dram Bulk Smokeless Pressures in 2 3/4” case
https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA86
Long Tons/ sq. inch converted to PSI by Burrard’s formula

(Proof) with 6 1/4 Drams “Tower Proof” Black Powder and 1 2/3 oz. shot – 4.51 Tons = 14,034 psi
3 1/2 Drams Curtis & Harvey’s No. 4 T.S. Black Powder – 4.2 Tons = 12,992 psi
“Schultze” – 4.28 Tons = 13,260 psi
(In a 3” case, with additional wadding the pressure for “Schultze” was 4.93 = 15,445 psi )
“E.C.” – 4.92 Tons = 15,411 psi

Note the SAAMI 2 3/4" 12g Max. is 11,500 psi

and BTW 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. (1275 fps) in an 8# gun = 27 ft/lbs free recoil
1 1/8 oz. at 1200 fps in today's 10# trap guns = 16.2 ft/lbs

[Cold Spring]

Originally Posted by Drew Hause

1 1/4 oz. with 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. was the standard Live Bird load in the U.S. 1895 - about 1900; and although Krupp, Siemens-Martin and Whitworth fluid steel barrels were available, certainly most guns were Damascus

Sporting Guns and Gunpowders, “Tests Of Strain On Breech Actions”, in Field, 1892
1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dram Bulk Smokeless Pressures in 2 3/4” case
https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA86
Long Tons/ sq. inch converted to PSI by Burrard’s formula

(Proof) with 6 1/4 Drams “Tower Proof” Black Powder and 1 2/3 oz. shot – 4.51 Tons = 14,034 psi
3 1/2 Drams Curtis & Harvey’s No. 4 T.S. Black Powder – 4.2 Tons = 12,992 psi
“Schultze” – 4.28 Tons = 13,260 psi
(In a 3” case, with additional wadding the pressure for “Schultze” was 4.93 = 15,445 psi )
“E.C.” – 4.92 Tons = 15,411 psi

Note the SAAMI 2 3/4" 12g Max. is 11,500 psi

and BTW 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. (1275 fps) in an 8# gun = 27 ft/lbs free recoil
1 1/8 oz. at 1200 fps in today's 10# trap guns = 16.2 ft/lbs

Drew, not to get anything started here again but I read that you're using "Burrard's conversion" factor to come up with those psi numbers. Can you please elaborate how that conversion relates/applies to period American lead crusher pressures, and from there to modern transducer measurement? Thank you.

Interesting that Askins wrote extensively in 1929 about American shotshell loading and pressure testing and although I read his volume many times I don't remember seeing any reference to Burrard nor anything other than lead crusher pressure in tons per sq inch. Let's take just one number from his chart for maximum loads of DuPont's Bulk smokeless as provided by its Brandywine Lab, i.e., 12-gauge 1-1/4 ounce and 3-1/2 drams shows an average of 4.70 tons. Now, correlating with the data here in the quote that would be about 14,750 psi. That doesn't make sense to me