Shotshell Pressure Question?

[Mike Stahle]

Originally Posted by Dave Noreen

The "Drams Equivalent" business came about as the various dense smokeless powders began coming into use in the late 1800s and early 1900s. Prior to that both black powder and bulk smokeless powder (E.C., Schultze, DuPont, etc.) were measured by dram (volume), as black powder had been in earlier times to pour down the mouth of your muzzle loader. Shooters of the day had a warm fuzzy feeling for how their favorite load of 3 1/4 drams of powder and 1 1/4 ounces of shot (or whatever) performed. Then along comes dense smokeless powders such as Laflin & Rand's Infallible, Nobel's Ballistite and Walsrode, which are loaded by grains (weight). Joe Nimrod goes to the gun store and sees boxes of UMC Nitro Clubs loaded with 24 grains of Infallible and 1 1/4 ounces of shot, and he doesn't have that warm fuzzy feeling of how that load performs. So, the manufacturers came up with Dram Equiv. to put on their shell box which means this shell is loaded with enough dense (or after the early 1920s progressive burning) smokeless powder to give the same velocity as a 3 1/4 Dram load of black or bulk smokeless powder and thereby to give Joe Nimrod his warm fuzzy feeling and product loyalty. This this Drams Equiv. business should have gone away with WW-I and the companies should have began just putting the velocity on the box, but shooters are a hidebound lot!!

Just because you pick up some low brass shells at Wally World and they are listed as 2 3/4 drams equiv. and 1 1/8 ounces of shot (or any other load), doesn't mean they are any lower pressure then a 1 7/8 ounce 3-inch Magnum load. To produce lower priced shells the manufacturers use a lesser amount of hotter powders to give the desired velocity at a cheaper price. All they have to do is stay below the SAAMI spec. which for 2 3/4 and 3-inch 12-gauge shells is 11500 psi.

So is it possible to have a Damascus barreled gun made in the late 1800s to early 1900s to have never actually had a black powder shell fired through it? I have a gut feeling many of these old girls have lived there 100+ yrs. on a steady diet of smokless anything and everything, picked up at the local hardware store :-))

[Ed Blake]

Remington Gun Club 1 oz. 2 3/4 dreq load (1185 fps) has a disclaimer on the box that the load may not cycle all semi-automatic shotguns. Some years back I called Winchester and asked them about pressures in their Xtra-Lite 1 oz. and their Featherlite 26 gram (low noise low recoil) loadings. They responded saying the Xtra-Lite load generates 8,500 psi and the Featherlite has 6,500 psi. (Remington would never tell me what psi their loads generated.) I have shot quite a few flats of both of these loadings out of various damascus-barreled guns. Some have questioned the effectiveness of the 26 gram load and let me say it is plenty effective. Yesterday while shooting doves my son Edward plastered a barn pigeon at 30 yards with one of these "Feather-Lite" loads using his tight choked VH.

[Bill Murphy]

Mike, many Damascus and Twist guns have never seen a black powder load. I have a little Damascus G 16 that was made in 1917. However, early smokeless loads probably have pressure readings lower than the modern promo loads. I don't use promo loads in Damascus guns or real thin steel guns.

[Drew Hause]

What Ed said. Pressure testing by Armbrust for comparison:

3 Dr. Eq. 1 1/8 oz.
Winchester Trap Load
1,202 fps 9,600 psi

AA Xtra-Lite 1 oz WAAL12
1189 fps 8000 psi

AA 'Low noise Low recoil' 15/16 oz
980 fps 6,200 psi

[Researcher]

Mike,

I'm sure that as you said, there were many Damascus barrel guns that never saw a black powder load. From family experience I know my Grandfather's 1890-vintage heavy 3-frame 12-gauge PH-Grade digested many many cases of Super-X and Federal Hi-Powers living on a farm in Minnesota with six growing boys. According to the family oral history Grandpa tried one of those new fangled Winchester Model 1897 pump guns but couldn't get use to it, so traded it off for this 1890-vintage Parker Bros. at Kennedy Bros. in the Twin Cities in 1901. My Father and Uncles would talk of Grandpa going by the Federal plant and getting buckets of slightly blemished shells, Federal "seconds" that they all shot in the old Parker. Similarly my Father shot nothing but factory smokeless loads in the three Damascus barrel Remington doubles he owned over the years. I doubt my Father, Grandfather and Uncles never gave a thought to pressures or chamber length. They were convinced that those Damascus barrel warnings on shell boxes were attempts by the manufacturers to sell new guns!

Drew has probably looked more closely at the old shoot reports, but I don't recall seeing a listing of a single shooter at the GAHs at live birds in the late 1890s and early 1900s using black powder. Capt. A.W. Money came to the U.S. in 1890 and began producing American E.C. and Schultze smokeless powders. I'm sure there were others before that. I seem to recall that Wood smokeless powder came out in the mid-1870s. It is all probably in one of Ed's books.

Dave

[Mike Stahle]

Any of you guys ever try this brand of low pressure shells?

http://neweraammunition.com/

[Leighton Stallones]

I bought some of these also, in the commerative box and e mailed Federal as to the pressure. I received a semi generic answer back telling me to assume that all of their ammo was 10,000psi or more

[Opening Day]

Mike, I shoot alot of New Era ammo, matter of fact I think I have about five or six flats that need to be shot..... Nice low pressure ammo and if you need something custom load Brian will do it for you. Great company

[Roundsworth]

Brad Bachelder is listed as a New Era retailer. I have tried Polywad Vintagers and like them. I noticed that RST seems to be the cartridge of choice with most of the forum members. Is there something about Polywad that I don't know?

[Mike Stahle]

Is there an actual hard number used as a standard breaking point for high and low pressure determination?