Walmart winchester AA

[wayne goerres]

OK I see how all this got going. Apparently you have to spell out even the obvious. You said it your self earlyer. ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL. I was comparing apples to apples not apples to oranges.Same case same crimp ,same wad,same primer,same payload. the only to significantly increase or decrease velosity is to change the powder. Now I will admit to being a little lazy but I did check Sherman Bells data and it comfirms that when all else is equal that an increase in powder increases velocity and preasure.

[Big Friend Ten (BFT)]

Wayne,

No offence meant but WE do not know what powders Winchester uses to load their ammo. Chances are a big manufacture uses what ever is available at the LOWEST cost to produce a specified result. Their low recoil ammo could be at 6000 psi one month and 9000 psi the next so long as it pushes a specified load at the advertised velocity.

In reloading it pays to be accurate especially if you are sharing information on the Internet.

[wayne goerres]

I am baseing my analisis of this shell on felt recoil. I am most worried about a Split stock not my damascus barrels. Sherman Bell wasn,t building reloads to check preasures rather he was trying test damascus to the point of failyour. I think he did an excellent job and I use son e of his reloading data. I say this knowing that a lot of his published data came from outside sources. Buy the way I (personaly) would be very surprised if Winchesters tolorances on preasure were that wide.

[Big Friend Ten (BFT)]

Wayne,

I think we are on the same page!

Pressure certainly creates the energy to accelerate the ejecta but it alone is NOT a factor in determining the amount of recoil any load will produce in a firearm.

The attachment is from SAAMI for the Free Recoil Energy formula. It is teh most accurate and is pretty complicated. For our purposed here is an easier to use version from another forum:

Free recoil=

(weight of the bullet X muzzle velocity + 4700 X weight of powder charge)squared
__________________________________________________ ___________________
64.348 X weight of gun in pounds

The top line is divided by the bottom line. Sorry about the poor graphics above.

To simplify it even more this is a link to a recoil calculator:
http://kwk.us/recoil.html


Pressure creates movement of the ejecta against its launch platform which in our case in a shotgun. The movement of that platform is the recoil based on the total weight of the eject and it's velocity, both of which are countered by the weight of the gun. The heavier the launch platform the less recoil energy. Hmmm, in theory the less movement in the launch platform the greater the velocity of the ejecta although in most cases this would be darn hard to measure

Excessive recoil may crack our 100+ year old stocks, especially if a stock is soaked with decades of cleaning oil...

Excessive pressure will loosen an action of it too excessive produce a bulge in, or even burst a barrel.

The attachment is the Gun Recoil Formula from SAAMI:

[J.B. Books]

Mark I have found the on-line recoil calculators (like the one below) to be quite informative. One must add the weight of wad and filler wad to the "bullet weight" to properly calculate recoil. Wads are light but they are not inconsequential, the AA12SL weighs 34.1 grains.

My favorite 7/8 ounce load, 1200 fps, generates 11 ft lbs of recoil in my 8 lb DHE.

Up the shot charge to 1 ounce and recoil increases 27% to 14 ft lbs.

If I shoot a standard 2 3/4 dram trap load of 1 1/8 ounce at 1145 fps recoil increases 54% to 17 ft lbs.

http://www.huntamerica.com/recoil_calculator/

[Big Friend Ten (BFT)]

Thanks Pete!

In typing the above I forgot about the mass of the wad!

It is significant that in increasing the shot charge by 12.5%, while maintaining the same mass of powder and wad, the recoil increases by 27%. I bet a higher velocity would of the same 7/8 and 1 ounce loads would cause an even higher rise in recoil!

Okay, it's back to my yard work!!!
Mark

[Big D]

Mark - Doesn't the calculator measure the total area under the curve? I think what most of us are concerned with is the peak pressure spike which occurs shortly after the round is fired. What I want in a "low recoil" shell is one with a minimal pressure spike, and a longer duration, which results in a push against your shoulder, rather than a punch. I think that's why slower burning powders are more comfortable on me (and the gun).

As a side benefit, I believe shot from a slow burning powder load patterns better, because it has not been subjected to the "jab", and isn't deformed as much. When I was gunning springer field trials, which requires that you shoot the birds at maximum range, (in order to see the dog's marking and retrieving ability), I was shooting 26.5 gr of 800X and 1 1/4 oz of hard 6's or copper plated 5's

[wayne goerres]

Were going the long way around the barn to tell me what I already know. The shells are as advertised. Now I didnt conograph the load But the recoil is mild and the noise level is low. Recoil is more of a precieved thing. What seems like a lot of recoil to one person dos'nt seem like mutch to the next person. I have used this formula and in the real world it dosnt mean much other than to tell you how much reaward thrust your load along with the weight of the gun will generate. How each person precieves that thrust is different. We have gone a long way from a load that IMHO wont break your stock. I am tickled to death that someone is manufactureing a shell and selling it locally that I feel safe putting through my doubles.

[Big Friend Ten (BFT)]

Originally Posted by wayne goerres

Were going the long way around the barn to tell me what I already know. The shells are as advertised. Now I didnt conograph the load But the recoil is mild and the noise level is low. Recoil is more of a precieved thing. What seems like a lot of recoil to one person dos'nt seem like mutch to the next person. I have used this formula and in the real world it dosnt mean much other than to tell you how much reaward thrust your load along with the weight of the gun will generate. How each person precieves that thrust is different. We have gone a long way from a load that IMHO wont break your stock. I am tickled to death that someone is manufactureing a shell and selling it locally that I feel safe putting through my doubles.

Wayne,

You started a good thread which evolved into a discussion the ol' pressure vs. recoil subject. Common sense would indicate that low felt recoil should not crack a stock. Fair enough. I hope we all realize that low recoil may be from low or high peak pressure. Most if not all shooter could not notice the difference in a large amount of slow burning powder or a load of ultra fast burning powder that produces a peak pressure in excess of what is considered safe so long as the load leaves the barrel at the same velocity.

In a fluid steel Parker who would care about low pressure? Not many unless someone honed or reamed the barrels thin enough to become dangerous! Removing pits from barrels is easy to do but keeping the bore concentric with the barrel exterior is far from easy! I have encountered such barrels and retired them from service.

For anyone reading this thread wanting to shoot a Damascus barreled gun, or fluid steel for that matter that has unknown barrel thickness, smoothly honed barrels to the point of being dangerous combined with a moderate peak pressure could cost them a finger or an eye! That is why some of us take this subject seriously. What we post on this PGCA forum is read by thousands of collectors and shooters. As PGCA members we try to provide accurate information with supporting references about a potentially dangerous subject whenever possible.

Pete and I and others dive into the science of ballistics because we shoot the Short Ten extensively for which there is precious little loading data available. Pete comprised a spreadsheet a year or two ago of the available loads which do not always accommodate the powder, primers, hulls, and type of shot that we may have available. For load development we measure velocity and peak pressure.

Once again, thanks for starting a great topic!
Mark

[Eldon Goddard]

I went out yesterday and shot a few rounds of this load through my Ithaca flues. It shot fine but it was difficult to open the action after firing. I have never encountered this problem before. Other than that it worked great.