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steve its funny you mentioning the old model 12 with the cutts on it i was just looking at it today...it was still ugly...but as you said i shoot it when aint nobody lookin and dont tell nobody...the model 12 is surely a fine gun... heh and i found the old humpback 20 ga pump gona try it out on crows soon..i can quit blamin my grandson now for gettin it... charlie