Rib Matting Terminations

[Bruce Day]

The ribs were matted by a matting machine, and as I understand its operation, a person had to disengage the matt cutting tool at the right time by visual determination. After the lunch beer, maybe his timing slipped.

A few records have been found where a completed gun was sent back to Parker and Parker shortened the barrels. My sense is that is very exceptional.

[Bill Murphy]

I gave Bruce a "thanks" for his post, but I have seen more than a couple of Parker orders where they shortened barrels. In addition, customers thought that Parker Brothers could restore chokes in shortened barrels. In my experience with "fat" bores, I think Parker Brothers did try to accommodate customers by overboring barrels and restoring chokes on short barrels. I, or maybe Mark, can come up with an example. I agree that an album picturing rib terminations, but I think all such pictures should be accompanied by bore and choke dimensions and PGCA letter implying that the termination is factory work. Without such documentation, the termination would be just another rib, original or maybe not.

[Autumn Daze]

Robert,As Bill has mentioned.I have had a couple of guns that are documented by factory records that the barrels were cut and the gun was shipped within a couple of weeks of the order date.An interesting note about this is that both guns had the barrel keels in place.

[Bill Murphy]

Dave, I bet that they still had choke too. I sure wish they were still in business. Whatever you wanted they delivered, and it was "two bucks". No wonder they aren't here today.

[Autumn Daze]

Bill,You are correct.In fact if I remember right they had a fair amount of choke.

[jay shachter]

Finally! Glad to hear this topic coming up. The misinformation regarding barrel matting termination is one of the most pervasive issues for newcomers to collecting Parkers. I can't believe the number of times I have had to explain that it is a viable GUIDELINE, but not set in stone. No bar at the end, flag goes up! Then measure the bore diameter, the length of chokes, the actual barrel length, and if possible, check the factory production info. If the chokes are 4" or longer and the bore diameter is factory, it is likely the barrels are uncut. Even the letter can get it wrong on occaission.

There are factory original Parker barrels that are +/- 1/8" of what is stated or standard. 27 7/8" barrels are not necessarily cut, as is the case with 28 1/8" barrels. The internal dimensions of the bores and chokes are probably the clearest indicators, in my opinion.

That is why it pays to invest in a good, 15" or longer bore micrometer. Look at Hosford and Co. in Ann Arbor Michigan for some of the best shotgun barrel tools in the country. John Hosford is coming out with an incredible bore gauge that will measure 28ga. - 10ga. with no changing of heads, all one tool. His barrel wall thickness gauge is fully portable and accurate, best gauge on the market. Phone number 734 395 9818.

[Bruce Day]

Good advice from a gun dealer. Jay does business as FXE( 616 292 6240) on several internet sales sites and comes to worthwhile gun shows.

[Bindlestiff]

This is good! I took what I learned in this thread and created a FAQ on cut barrels. Look it over and if it isn't accurate let me know and I change it. Here is what I posted as the answer in the FAQ page:

The misinformation regarding barrel matting termination to determine cut barrels is one of the most pervasive misconceptions for new Parker collectors. There is an expectation that rib matting stops at the front bead and a bar of un-matted rib is found from the front bead to the rib's end. No bar at the end of the matting and a flag goes up! No bar at the rib's end is a viable guideline, but not an absolute rule.

Most of the time, but not always, expect to find the two barrels touching at the muzzle end for un-cut barrels. But sometime to get barrels regulated to shoot to point of aim wedges were inserted to separate barrels and other times some cut barrels may touch. Again, barrels touching is a guideline and not a rule.

On uncut barrels, the space between the barrels and the ribs at the muzzle end should have visible triangular metal filler strips, called keels, and not simply solder. Cut barrels may or may not have visible keels, because the original keels were tapered triangular wedge about one and a half inches in length and depending on the barrel length removed, some length of keel may still be present. Shortened keels would "probably" have more solder showing than normal because of their taper allowing more solder area to be visable. No keels at all indicates cut barrels.

If in doubt, measure the bore diameter, the length of chokes, the actual barrel length, and if possible, check the factory production information. If the chokes are 4 inches or longer and the bore diameter is factory, it is likely that the barrels are uncut. But, even the factory letter can get it wrong on occasion.

There are factory original Parker barrels that are +/- 1/8" of what is stated or standard. 27 7/8" barrels are not necessarily cut, as is the case with 28 1/8" barrels.

The internal dimensions of the bores and chokes are probably the clearest indicators.

[jay shachter]

Robin, I would correct that not all uncut barrels touch at the muzzles. The barrels were regulated to shoot to point of aim, and sometimes needed to be adjusted prior to finishing them up. There was a wedge inserted between the barrels and as they were tested as to where the point of impact was, the wedge was manuvered until the desired results were acheived. They could care less how close the two barrels were to contacting, but cared about shot patterns impacting correctly downrange. I had a Fox CE 20ga. with a 30" set of #4 weight Fox barrels, factory lettered for 3" chambers, made in 1912 (they didn't manufacture 3" 20ga. shells then) with nearly 3/16" gap between them that hit to point of aim at 40 yards. It was an awesome gun and one that I am trying to buy back. Point is that it broke alot of rules; the chambers were not lengthened aftermarket, the barrels did not touch at the muzzle.

Muzzles almost always touch or come a hair from doing so, but not always. AGAIN, FOR EVERY "HARD RULE" THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS. VERY FEW THINGS ARE ALWAYS OR NEVER. New guys offer unfounded opinions too much, listen too little, and put too much store into what they read. It takes time and experience to see all the variations that occur with these fine guns. I ALWAYS LISTEN INTENTLY WHEN I CAN BE PART OF A CONVERSATION WHERE AT LEAST ONE OF THE SPEAKERS is over 65 years old and HAS BEEN AVIDLY COLLECTING FOR MOST OF THEIR LIVES. You gain more from that than the books can give you. Cherish it now, for the older gents are short on earth. Every generation that goes by we get farther from the guys that were there when it all happened!

[Bindlestiff]

Thanks Jay,

I made edits to my post above "trying" to convey your comments.

Robin