Parker Shotgun Gauge History On Shell Sizes

[Live A Life Of Purpose]

The question I have is there any information available for determining when Parker Shotgun’s started making a 2 3/4” chamber gun for 12 and or 20 gauge guns. Often times you’re looking at buying a Parker Shotgun and the verbiage on the link or magazine may say it is a 2 3/4” gun. Is this a general statement and you need to measure the gauge depth or what have you done in the past when looking at purchasing a Parker if you are not physically there to measure and observe.

Thanks as I’m trying to better understand as I’m investigating for purchasing the right gun.

Eddy

[Bill Jacobs]

Your question is a good one, and I look forward to answers from the experts. I keep a set of chamber gauges in my shop. I use them frequently, and they are quite simple. Insert them into the chamber. They stop at the line indicating the chamber length. While mine are shop-made, the Walkers sold by Brownells would be a worthwhile investment for anyone. https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-t...e-prod593.aspx

https://www.flickr.com/gp/24542443@N04/V13UXJ

Meanwhile, if you get a shotgun with short chambers you have the option of using RST shells in it. They are really good shells.

Bill Jacobs

[Harry Collins]

1927 sticks in my side as the start of 2 3/4" chambered guns.

[Bruce Day]

Cartridge length is not a significant issue. It will make little difference in chamber pressure for standard lengths. Parker chambers were designed to be slightly short .

This has never been a buying criterion to me.

[Drew Hause]

Major Sir Gerald Burrard, The Modern Shotgun, Volume II, “The Cartridge”, 1955 3rd Revised Edition, p. 154 in reference to modern “star” crimped paper cases
“For all practical purposes any increase in pressure due to the longer cartridge case really does not exist provided the correct powder and shot charges for a nominal 2 1/2 inch cartridge are used.”

Obviously this applies to 2 3/4" hulls in 2 5/8" 12g chambers.

A summary of Bell's and Armbrust's study “Long Shells in Short Chambers”, in “Finding Out for Myself” Part V, Double Gun Journal, Winter 2001 is about 1/3 down here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...vwLYc-kGA/edit
The pressure increase for one load was 1200 psi

OTOH: I had a 1924 20g Parker with chambers slightly longer than 2 3/8". Recoil with standard 2 3/4" 7/8 oz. skeet loads was severe, and the case mouths were feathered, evidence that the hull had entered the forcing cone.

[Bill Jacobs]

That reference is an outstanding read, Drew. In my capacity as a Gunsmithing Instructor, I teach the "safety" class. Having some real data to show the students is wonderful. Thank you!

To the question at hand, I still can't see that I could recommend 2 3/4 inch shells in short chambers.

Bill Jacobs

[Researcher]

Virtually from the beginning of cartridge shotguns, our manufacturers offered both brass and paper shotgun cases in a variety of lengths. By the 1890s when our big ammunition manufacturers began offering factory loaded paper shotgun shells, 12-gauge shells were offered in 2 5/8, 2 3/4, 2 7/8, 3 and 3 1/4 inch lengths; and 20-gauge in 2 1/2, 2 3/4, 2 7/8 and 3 inch lengths. Generally speaking, the heaviest loads offered could be had in the 2 3/4 inch cases, and the advantage of the longer cases was more and better wadding.

The first big cartridge length thing was that Winchester's Model 1893 was made to function with 2 5/8 inch 12-gauge shells, so in four years they upgraded it to the Model 1897 which was made for 2 3/4 inch 12-gauge shells. When Remington Arms Co. introduced their John M. Browning designed Remington Autoloading Shotgun in 1905, it was made for 2 3/4 inch 12-gauge shells as was their John D. Pedersen designed Remington Repeating Shotgun introduced in late 1908. The next year the J. Stevens Arms & Tool Co. introduced their No. 520 John M. Browning designed pump made for 2 3/4 inch 12-gauge shells.

Winchester then introducing their Model 12 pump for a 2 1/2 inch 20-gauge shell makes one wonder. When Remington Arms Co., Inc. introduced their John M. Browning designed Model 17 20-gauge pump it was made for the 2 3/4 inch shell.

The Brothers P certainly offered their customers whatever chamber length they requested. I have a WW-I era 20-gauge for 3-inch shells and my 1930 vintage VH-Grade has the 2 3/8 inch chambers intended for 2 1/2 inch shells.

[George Neal]

I have a brass chamber gauge from Galazan and it clearly pegs my Parker 20 VH at 2 1/2". I buy my shells from RST, but with shortages, getting them can be a real challenge, even buying them by the flats. Thus far I've resisted the urge to find a competent gunsmith to have the chamber lengthened to 2 3/4," but it sure would be easier to find fuel for it when I need it. The cost difference of the shells is another enticement, but since I don't plan on using it for more than the occasional quail hunt, I'm ok with that.
I'm a big believer in using a product in the way it was designed and intended to be used (hence not reaming out the chambers on this one), and I would NEVER shoot a shell much longer than the chamber length in any gun, especially not one this old and valuable.
I appreciate everyone's input, but my question is very simple. In the 1920's, if I contacted Parker and asked to buy their "standard" 20-gauge, what length would the chambers be?
Thanks much.

[Researcher]

Those chamber gauges are virtually worthless. All chambers were not bored to "industry standards" hence such gauges can stop short if the chamber is tight or go in farther if the chamber is oversized.

This is one of the best responses I've read and have saved and reposted it several times --

Chamber depth is considered to be the distance between the breech end of the barrels and the joint between the chamber body itself and the forcing cone, which reduces down to bore diameter. This is loosely based on the length of the "Fired" shell. Today, theoretically when the crimp opens on the shell being fired the end would land at the junction of the chamber and cone. Prior to WW-II many companies had the practice of holding the chamber about 1/8 inch shorter than the shell for which it was intended. Fly in the ointment is nominal measurements often differ from actual ones in both chambers and shells. A very good method I have found of measuring chambers without much outlay of cash, and is quite accurate enough for virtually any situation, is a common 6" flexible machinist's scale which you likely have. Hold the barrels with muzzles toward a light source, not necessarily a concentrated one a window is great, while looking into the breech and the cone will be thrown in a shadow. May have to move the barrels around a little until it is distinct. While still looking into the chamber simply slide the scale in until you observe the end coming flush with the shadow line & mark position of breech end with your thumb. Remove and read the scale. I usually repeat this a few times to insure I am getting a consistent reading, but you will be amazed how accurate this can be done. While I own a Galazan chamber gauge, I use this more often than not. The chamber body itself has a taper of about .005" per inch. Sometimes chambers were cut with slightly worn reamers giving a slight undersize chamber. If the chamber is a bit undersize a gauge made to "industry" standards will not go in to the true depth of the chamber. A.H. Fox Gun Co. shotguns are known for having tight chambers. The machinist’s scale method can be more accurate.