Old Ammo

C.O.B. · 07-07-2010, 08:14 PM

Recently I found a box of Remington Kleenbore Nitro Express 28ga paper shells. These are loaded with 3/4 oz of shot. The thing thats puzzeling is that these are 2 7/8 inches in length. I have a box of Peters Target loads also 28ga that are 2 3/4 in length and 3/4 oz of shot. The Remington shells are green while the Peters are blue. Both are paper hulls.

Is the difference in color due to RemingtonVS Peters? When were 2 7/8 length produced? Another difference is that the Remingtons are roll crimped while the Peters arn't.

Roundsworth · 07-07-2010, 09:26 PM

The green and blue were standard colors for quite awhile. If your box has the DuPont oval logo, it is post 1933. The green Kleanbore line, in the green box, was introduced in 1931. In 1939, Remington introduced the star crimp. It took until 1947 to phase in all lines. Late 1933 saw the corrugated paper shell body from Remington. I don't have much info on Peters. The 2-7/8" 28 bore was also made by WRA Co. and is shown in the 1914 and 1920 catalogs, but seems to be gone by 1928. I would think that the big companies did not like to be 'one-upped' by the others, so Remington or Peters probably adopted the longer shell during the same time frame. I do not have any Remington info on that particular size. I hope that wasn't more confusing than helpful!

Dean Romig · 07-07-2010, 10:37 PM

Very informative Mark - thanks.

C.O.B. · 07-08-2010, 09:05 AM

Mark-Thank you very much for the information. A person could make quite a hobby out of studying these old shells. I buy them for decoration for the "Gun Room" and just happened to notice the unusual (to me) length of 2 7/8. Were early 28's chambered for this longer length or were they used in std 2 3/4 chambers?

Roundsworth · 07-08-2010, 06:15 PM

TheModel (19)12 was not made in 28 gauge in 1914 or 1928. It is an option in 1941 for the Model 12 and 37, but not the 21 (not even custom!) According to Madis, the 28 gauge was added to the Model 12 line-up in 1934 and dropped in 1958. The Model 21 was chambered for the 28 in 1936. Nothing about chamber lengths. There seems to be a lot of differences between Mr. Madis' book and actual catalogs. I guess a person had to inquire with the factory to make sure. As for Western, they bought WRA Co. in 1931. Boxes were not marked as such until 1939. Olin came into the picture in 1944. Boxes were marked 'Olin' in 1946. I have lotsa good Winchester info! Cheers!

Roundsworth · 07-08-2010, 08:18 PM

Here is a photo for your enjoyment!
Left to Right: 50x3-1/4", 4 gauge NPE, 10 gauge, 12 gauge, 16 gauge, 28 gauge (2-7/8")

Hmmmm...as for Madis, that is a challenge!

charlie cleveland · 07-09-2010, 09:42 AM

nice looking shells what brand of shell is the 4 ga. were is the 8 ga and 3 ga at. just a thought charlie

ch · 07-11-2010, 08:21 AM

Mark,

Do collect cartridges? Whats the headstamp on the 50 3 1/4? ch

Autumn Daze · 07-11-2010, 09:00 AM

A little "Off Topic" here but I think we need to give correct information. The Model 12 in 12 gauge was introduced in 1914 not 1919 as previously stated. Both the 16 and 12 were introduced in the same year.

Old and Reliable · 07-11-2010, 06:11 PM

The Model 1912 was introduced in 20 gauge with 25" barrel in 1912- the Model 1912 in 16 and 12 gauge was introduced in 1914- In 1912 the 20, 16 and 12 gauge Model 1912's (nickel steel barrels) became known as the Model 12- WRA saved a few pennies by eliminating the 19- same gun, same perch belly stock in the field grades (until 1935)-- Nickel steel was still the stamping until about 1933, when Winchester proof Steel (AISI 4140) replaced it, after the Fubar with the stainless barrels-

The 3" Mag M12 came out in 1935, and the first year for the M12 in 28 gauge was 1937- Not sure, as I have about as much interest in .410 shotguns as I do kissing Monica Lewinski at the next Veteran's Day Blast at the Polish Falcon hall in Cicero, IL- but I believe the M42 came out in about 1933- Tommy C. Johnson and Wm. Roehmer (who help[ed design the Model 21) developed that shotgun--

If I mislead anyone interested in either Model 1912's or Model 12's, my apologies- but at least I spell "Murphey" as Murphy- and to answer the ? on the error in the Madis book- "The Winchester Model Twelve 1 of 1000" it is, like the Murphey/Murphy spelling thing, that sorta error-see pg. 148- the blonde Lady actress with a M12 much like my 1948 Pigeon Grade Trap- her name is Ann Sothern"- not Southern- as the great Casey "Stinky" Stengel once said- "Hey, you can always look it up in da book" and I did- Maybe Mr. Madis has British ancestry- the Limeys are always adding an extra "u" here and there- honor becomes honour- etc- who knew??