New Remington shells & hulls

[Cold Spring]

Just wanted to post a heads up on the new Remington Clay & Field shells and hulls you may start seeing discarded on clays fields and courses. The shells are light green in color and as I understand it, are a hybrid between the Remington STS/Premier line, the popular Gun Clubs, and hunting shells. One of the features is supposed to be the 4% antimony shot in the Clay & Field which is harder than the shot used in Gun Clubs. It’s a one piece molded hull without a separate base wad. I picked up some hulls on the course yesterday and they are stenciled: 1200 fps with 1-1/8 ounce of shot which is of course a little hotter than typical modern target loads and is close to the old time standard “low brass” load in 12-gauge. The new factory shells sound good for small game hunting in guns that can handle 2-3/4" shells loaded to SAAMI pressure standards. I don’t know what other loads/gauges are offered at present. I haven’t seen any published reloading data as yet but I put up several hulls with my regular clays load using TGT-12 wads and 1-ounce of shot @1150 fps and 7500 psi in Gun Clubs. The new C&F hulls loaded the same and recoil is the same as best I can tell. It remains to be seen how the new hulls will hold up to repeated loadings; in that respect it will be tough to beat Remington Gun Clubs.

[Bruce Day]

Frank, your statement "loaded to SAAMI standards", what pressures are you talking about ?

The present 12 ga 2 3/4" standard is 13,000 psi maximum, up from the previous of 10,500, presumably to cycle gas operated autos. Combine that with a SAAMI allowable two coefficients of error of 7 1/2 percent each, and a SAAMI allowable load in excess of Parker proof loads could result, and certainly in excess of Parker maximum operational loads.

The old STS 1 1/8 3 dre loads used to run about 9500 if I remember correctly. Are these different?

[Cold Spring]

Originally Posted by Bruce Day

Frank, your statement "loaded to SAAMI standards", what pressures are you talking about ?

The present 12 ga 2 3/4" standard is 13,000 psi maximum, up from the previous of 10,500, presumably to cycle gas operated autos. Combine that with a SAAMI allowable two coefficients of error of 7 1/2 percent each, and a SAAMI allowable load in excess of Parker proof loads could result, and certainly in excess of Parker maximum operational loads.

The old STS 1 1/8 3 dre loads used to run about 9500 if I remember correctly. Are these different?

Bruce, we all know that RST shells are loaded to comparatively low pressures and despite that the company is being responsible with a WARNING similar to the one I cited from the Remington shell box flap. I've shot RST's for years and was aware of that. Good for RST!

Now let’s consider some historical data: in 1904 an accepted industry service pressure for 12-gauge was 3 to 3-1/2 tons per square inch “in warmer months”. Lead crushers were in use at that time. Modern transducer technology would add about 10% to that pressure, thus the max service pressure was about 7700 psi.

Progressive powders were introduced in 1922 and a 1929 reference shows the max service pressure was held to 5.0 tons per lead crusher = about 11,000 psi transducer.

That ceiling has carried over pretty much intact over the years. In 2006 the SAAMI max service pressure (transducer) was shown as 11,500 psi for 12-gauge, 2-3/4”. And as recently as 2015 it was still 11,500 with 12,800 max psi as a sample mean. The acceptable lot to lot mean was a bit lower than that.

Bruce, I am interested in hearing more about your statement citing a move from 10,500 (?) to a present 13,000 psi maximum + two 7.5% standard errors = about 15,000 psi. Where did that info come from? My references show the current SAAMI spec is dated 2015 and still shows 11,500 psi for service pressure.

Nevertherless, the majority of vintage double guns were made over the years prior to the late 1920’s and while many are in excellent condition, others were given a modicum of care and are pretty sad. Also, some composite barrels can be suspect due to corrosion and hidden welding flaws. Who would responsibly give a blanket OK to shoot modern shotshells in any and all of them, shells that could be close to or at the absolute max industry pressure? Thus the Warnings on shell boxes whether those with high velocity/pressure shells, or not. I’m quite sure most vintage double gun shooters know this.

Back to Remington’s new C&F shotshells, without knowing their average and max mean pressures from lot to lot, I say again it’s prudent to consider they could be loaded to max pressure and urge gents again to heed the important safety WARNING that’s on the box. That's what I had written. I have not seen a C&F shell box but I’d be surprised if it doesn’t have the standard/responsible Remington shotshell Warning similar to what I'd copied here earlier.

All of this reminds me of the tale about the dumb farmer who hit his mule on the side of the head every morning with a piece of pipe, just to show who was boss. The mule winced every time but silently endured the torture for years. Then one morning the farmer hit the mule and the animal kicked him in the groin and broke his pelvis. Afterwards the farmer said “Gee, he never did that before”.

[Researcher]

From my research in old North American ammunition company catalogues, the heaviest 12-gauge loads offered from circa 1900 to 1921 were these, 3 1/2 drams of bulk smokeless powder pushing 1 1/4 ounce of shot --



and these with 28-grains of Ballistite dense smokeless powder pushing 1 1/4 ounce of shot --





According to some DuPont powder booklets in my collection by Wallace Coxe, one of their ballistic engineers, the 3 1/2 dram loads developed in the 11,600 to 11,700 pounds while the 28-grains of Ballistite was in the 12,600 range.

[Cold Spring]

Bruce, I have no idea what pressure the new C&F shells are loaded to, but without any information to the contrary from Remington, it's prudent for any users to keep in mind the SAAMI max pressure for 2-3/4" 12-gauge, along with the Institute's standard WARNING for modern shotshell ammunition. Here's one version on a Remington box that's handy: These shells must not be used in guns with chambers shorter that 2-3/4 inches, guns with Damascus or twist steel barrels, or guns not intended for use with modern smokeless powders. I really doubt that Remington is using anything other than a high energy/grain double-base powder in the new C&F shells. And surely they're made to function 100% reliably in autoloaders.

Note to readers, the "low brass" 12-gauge Field load of my youth was 1-1/8 ounce of shot loaded to 1225 fps, and most gents out for mixed small game had one of those in the right barrel along with a high brass H.V. load in the left (1-1/4 ounce at 1330). Repeaters usually had a low brass in the chamber along with one or more high brass in the magazine. Food for thought as some of us head out to the game fields this season with light payloads and/or so-called low pressure loads that are (supposedly) in the 1100 fps bracket.

[Bruce Day]

Originally Posted by Frank Srebro

Bruce, I have no idea what pressure the new C&F shells are loaded to, but without any information to the contrary from Remington, it's prudent for any users to keep in mind the SAAMI max pressure for 2-3/4" 12-gauge, along with the Institute's standard WARNING for modern shotshell ammunition. Here's one version on a Remington box that's handy: These shells must not be used in guns with chambers shorter that 2-3/4 inches, guns with Damascus or twist steel barrels, or guns not intended for use with modern smokeless powders. I really doubt that Remington is using anything other than a high energy/grain double-base powder in the new C&F shells. And surely they're made to function 100% reliably in autoloaders.

Note to readers, the "low brass" 12-gauge Field load of my youth was 1-1/8 ounce of shot loaded to 1225 fps, and most gents out for mixed small game had one of those in the right barrel along with a high brass H.V. load in the left (1-1/4 ounce at 1330). Repeaters usually had a low brass in the chamber along with one or more high brass in the magazine. Food for thought as some of us head out to the game fields this season with light payloads and/or so-called low pressure loads that are (supposedly) in the 1100 fps bracket.

Got it. Can't use these either.

[Kensal Rise]

For those interested, here is the Remington ballistics chart:

https://images.remington-catalog.com/56e0a82e5c79d

[Cold Spring]

Dave, I am curious about that du Pont 3-1/2 dram bulk smokeless load with 1-1/4 ounce that develops 11,600 pounds, is that pressure shown as LUP? If you have the booklet handy, what is its date?

In comparison Askins reported in 1929 that du Pont's ballistic sheet showed 4.65, 4.70 and 4.76 tons/sq in for 3-1/2 drams of its bulk smokeless powder and with 1-1/4 ounce of No 2, 4 and 6-shot respectively. Lead crushers were in use at that time. Those loads were listed as MAXIMUM (all caps as per Askins).

[Researcher]

The table where I got that just says pounds and I misstated it is actually 11,700. It does discuss in the booklets how pressure is measured and it is a lead crusher cylinder behind a .2250 inch diameter piston. I've got two booklets, one 1928 and the other 1933. The table in the 1928 booklet uses Tons and the table in the 1933 uses lbs. -- 11,800 lbs for Schultze giving velocity over 40 yards 941 fps, 12,600 for Ballistite giving velocity over 40 yards 966 fps and 11,700 for DuPont Smokeless giving velocity over 40 yards 943 fps. Meanwhile, 40 grains of their DuPont OVAL was only 9,400 lbs. giving a velocity over 40 yards of 981 fps. The payload in all cases being 1 1/4 ounce #6.