why is my Fox a Parker?

[RickR]

My “affair” with doubles began PM (Pre Macintosh) when 50 years ago I bought an A grade Fox. I soon became so involved that for a time I had a hobby business of repair and rehabilitation giving me hands on with quite a few different brands, and Fox's were always a favorite when it came to "keepers".

Life changed and I was forced to sell them all and until I bought a Parker hammer gun as a project and joined up here, I hadn’t done a rehabilitation in decades, but did a second gun while Covid stuck me at home, and then…

A Sterlingworth showed up on an auction site that not only had the recessed pin, but also a checkering pattern exactly like a Parker VH. I bought it to rehabilitate as a shooter and it arrived just now. Doing what research I could and with a Fox collector’s association now existing had much more info.

I’m really confused now. The site said Parker stopped using the dished out pin in 1912-13. My Krupp barreled “A” had an SN 7443 forgot the exact year, but the dished pin was gone. How could a dished pin be on the Sterly with a SN of 53,XXX? Even a separate number sequence for them couldn’t be that high, as it would mean by 1913 fox had made fewer than 10,000 graded guns, but 53,000 Sterlingworths?

Also, this is the only Sterly I’ve seen that’s such an obvious and successful Parker cosmetic copy. This one also has checkered fences, and I’m inclined to think that checkering wasn’t factory, but if not done as an add on option, it was applied when the gun was near new given the usage dingles on top of the design.

How old is my gun (barrels don’t say Cromox (sp) or Krupp), just Made by A.H. Fox?

What’s the real story over the dished pin guns and copying Parker (for a little while only) checkering pattern exactly?

I’m going to have to do some stock repairs obviously, but the gun is a delight in the hand, haven’t weighed it yet, but it can’t be more than 7 lbs. and an ounce or two. Reminds me of my one time 1 1/2 frame VH grouse gun.

Thanks

[OH Osthaus]

they are called Pin Guns - not rare- but only the earlier Sterlingworths had a recessed pin. I have a nice 30" 12ga one

that checkering is not factory

The site said Parker stopped using the dished out pin in 1912-13.

i think you meant Fox

but 53,000 Sterlingworths?

they started at 50,000


https://www.foxcollectors.com/fox-gu...orth-directory

[RickR]

Yes, I meant Fox stopped using the recessed pins in 1912-13, per the Fox site. That Sterlies began at 50,000 answers that it indeed is an early one. Thanks.

As for the checkering, I tend to agree that the checkered fences were applied later, but not much later, and they were cut by someone experienced such that they COULD have been an add on option, as they are also smaller diamonds which was IMO typical of factory checkered fences, hinting if a factory option, would have more probably been done as is on this gun.

If you are inferring that the grip checkering is not factory, then I disagree as the Fox site shows this Parker style grip and fore end checkering on their photo of an early Sterly. While All the others I've seen photos of have a lesser, more simple pattern.

I'm hoping someone knows the story to share here as the other site didn't help. By 1912-13 Ansley Fox was no longer associated with the AH Fox Gun Company. Did the new owners deliberately try to tap into the Parker market by copying them? If so why did they stop?

[OH Osthaus]

Originally Posted by Rick Rappe

Yes, I meant Fox stopped using the recessed pins in 1912-13, per the Fox site. That Sterlies began at 50,000 answers that it indeed is an early one. Thanks.

As for the checkering, I tend to agree that the checkered fences were applied later, but not much later, and they were cut by someone experienced such that they COULD have been an add on option, as they are also smaller diamonds which was IMO typical of factory checkered fences, hinting if a factory option, would have more probably been done as is on this gun.

If you are inferring that the grip checkering is not factory, then I disagree as the Fox site shows this Parker style grip and fore end checkering on their photo of an early Sterly. While All the others I've seen photos of have a lesser, more simple pattern.

I'm hoping someone knows the story to share here as the other site didn't help. By 1912-13 Ansley Fox was no longer associated with the AH Fox Gun Company. Did the new owners deliberately try to tap into the Parker market by copying them? If so why did they stop?

yes - i was referring to the cheek checkering - that was not offered as a factory option on the sterlingworths- the point of the sterlingworth was a basic gun built to a price point - few if any options - 3 barrel lengths and eventually 3 gauges

the sterlingworth was simply an attempt to get some of the basic price point market - without digging out the Fox book- so working from memory, I think the recessed pin design was dropped because it cost more to do it..

Ansley did not want a basic grade gun - the earliest ones say Sterlingworth Co. to separate them from the firm, that was also soon dropped and AH Fox was added

the original iteration of the Fox Gun Company/Baltimore Arms Company also used the recessed pin design

[Researcher]

Ansley H. Fox Gun Co. graded guns A- to FE-grade had a smooth profile from the beginning in 1905. Here is an early 2-digit serial number gun from the Wayne & Bristol Streets days (1905-06) --

18 01 A-Grade.jpg

Only the first 12000 or so 12-gauge Sterlingworths had the recessed hinge pin. In 1910 they were marketed under the name The Sterlingworth Co.

50145 The Sterlingworth Co. 03.jpg

To further distance them from the Ansley H. Fox double the early guns were marked Wayne Junction instead of Philadelphia.

50180 The Sterlingworth Co. 01.jpg

and they even issued their own The Sterlingworth Co, catalog for 1910. By 1911, this entry-level gun was included in the A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalog --

Sterlingworth picture 1911.jpg

Sterlingworth text 1911.jpg

Ansley's earlier companies, Fox Gun Co., Balto., MD. U.S.A. (1898-99) --

438 B 01.png

and the Philadelphia Arms Co. (1902 t0 1906) --

262 A-Grade 01.jpg

[RickR]

I guess I was hoping for some drama. Like a Parker/Fox battle over an upstart making a gun thats a cosmetic direct copy of "Old Reliable".

Instead its the same old story of start up failures because the engineer doesn't understand all the obstacles of bringing a better mousetrap to market.

"Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door." Umm, not necessarily.

The pin guns are an example of not having a handle on production cost. If, we accept dropping the recessed pin was an economy move, then we need to assume it cost MORE to machine the Sterlingworth pin version's receiver than the graded guns.

Yes, I knew the earlier guns all had recessed pins. Still have old black/white photos of my Philly Arms "B" grade and my 7xxx "A". Logic says the Sterlingworth should never have had the recessed pins, and if it hung around at all, would have been on the higher grade guns.

Got the stock off, finish stripped, dents steamed and began wiping on French Red walnut stain to get the original color correct. Off to the hardware store for some supplies, hoping to get the gun together in time to shoot it this weekend, and then take my time with the cosmetic details with the end goal of turning the appearance from beat up and abused to well used but well cared for and as "originalish" as possible.

Gun is a delight, in that it fits me. I'm happy.

Rick

[B. Dudley]

The "Pin" sterlingworths are kind of a carryover from the earlier Philadelphia arms shotguns which were very much a copy of Parker guns from a cosmetic standpoint (frame profiling was very similar, recessed hinge pin, the forend parts are identical to parkers and the rib matting and makers marks are also identical). The Philly arms guns also had some parts in them that were right out of the LC smith Parts bins. I actually suspect that Fox (philly arms) may have actually purchased raw parts from these other makers to save work on their end.

The only hold over in the "Pin" sterlingworths from the Philly Arms guns was the recessed pin and the checkering patterns used on the wrists. I do not know why they would have decided to hold these features on only the Sterlingworth, and not the graded guns of the same period. The "pin" sterlingworths are certainly a curiosity for these reasons to most people.

Another tidbit of information on these guns is that they were only made for less than 3 years and they actually have 3 different forend fastening systems on them that are all totally different from each other. The first style used was the "Baker" style latch which utilized a "J" spring to hold the forend on. Many of these fronds ended up getting lost over the years and they are very hard to find due to their limited production.

[Wild Skies]

Isn't a Parker's action a little longer than a Fox Pin gun's action?

For those that have both, would you please measure yours and report back?

[B. Dudley]

Yes, a Parkers action is longer. Not that it matters too much. They are two completely different designs internally.

[Researcher]

There were some early Lefevers with the recessed hinge pin, and several of the J. Stevens Arms & Tool Co. doubles had a slightly recessed hinge pin.

There was just a bit of drama over Parker Bros. Trojan Grade's forearm fastening --

233527 02.jpg

233527 04.jpg

being a patent infringement of the A.H. Fox Gun Co.'s Patent No. 1,029,374 granted to J.C. Kremer & A.H. Fox on June 11, 1912. After the A.H. Fox Gun Co. quit using the Baker J-spring forearm on their The Sterlingworth Company guns, and the Sterlingworth became an A.H. Fox Gun Co. gun, they went to using the J.C. Kremer & A.H. Fox forearm fastening on their extractor Sterlingworths and their extractor small-bores of all grades.

200158 01.jpg

They used their F.T. Russell Patent No. 1,029,229 forearm fastening on their ejector Sterlingworths and their ejector small-bores of all grades.

200067-06.jpg

200067-07.jpg

Several decades ago, before I was quite so focused on this historical minutia, Babe DelGrego showed me a file of letters he had between Parker Bros. and A.H. Fox Gun Co. about this. Unfortunately I don't recall any details of the letters, but we know that the A.H. Fox eventually quit using their J.C. Kremer & A.H. Fox type fastening and went to using the F.T. Russel style on both extractor and ejector guns.

94509 03.jpg

94509 04.jpg