Who is the Winchester engraver?? Help

Jared V. · 10-26-2011, 09:49 PM

I recently pulled this very early Winchester factory engraved Pigeon Grade Model 1912 out for a good cleaning. I would like some help trying to nail down who the engraver was. Produced in 1917 if that helps. Has some characteristics of an Ulrich job but also some traits of Gough. Perhaps neither? All thoughts are appreciated.
Jared V

Big D · 10-26-2011, 10:08 PM

I'm betting it's something like Fukashima. Looks like a non-orginaal aftermarket job to me.

Old and Reliable · 10-27-2011, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Dallas

I'm betting it's something like Fukashima. Looks like a non-orginaal aftermarket job to me.

Let me guess- you also picked the tigers to win the World Series- and the lions to repeat the Dolphins 1972 win/loss record this 16 game season-- This is the real deal, the gent who owns it is indeed fortunate- Model 12's- and model 1912's like this come along about as often as an honest politician runs for and wins an office--

:c uss:

Jared V. · 10-26-2011, 10:14 PM

Nope. Its a real one. If you have Dave Riffle's book on the model 12 look especially at page 19. Just having trouble nailing down the engraver without buying R.L. Wilson's book on the subject. Thought maybe someone here with the knowledge of Winchester Engravers of this era could help without the uninformed smart ass jabs. I know my pictures aren't the best.
JJV

Bill Murphy · 10-26-2011, 10:45 PM

Jared, that is one beautiful Winchester. They look like Ulrich ducks, but the engraving pattern is not the standard prewar Pigeon Grade pattern. I have a pair of prewar Ulrich Pigeon Grades in the standard pattern, but your gun is not like that except for the ducks. Maybe Pauline Muerrle could take a look. She offers a Winchester engraving authentication service. paulinemuerrle.com I would buy your gun to keep my two company, but I'm sure you have other plans. By the way, sorry about your pup.

Jared V. · 10-26-2011, 10:53 PM

Thanks Bill. I want to take some better pictures and I will certainly email them to Ms. Muerrle. I forgot to mention that it is a two barrel set. Actually in Riffle's book, he pictures a never assembled, in the white receiver with an almost identical pattern as my gun. Mr. Riffle does not mention, however, who the engraving is attributed to.
JJV

charlie cleveland · 10-27-2011, 08:28 AM

very nice engraving who ever done it...very nice.... charlie

Jared V. · 10-27-2011, 06:13 PM

Ms. Pauline was very quick with a reply and to my great pleasure informed me that the engraving was definetly done by John Gough who was employed by Winchester only until 1918. Is this the same Gough of the A.H. Fox factory engravers?

Roundsworth · 10-27-2011, 06:20 PM

Jared, have you considered a 'letter' from the Cody Museum? I know they ended up with a lot of factory records, from different makers, when public demand for authentication became overwhelming. You certainly do have a nice Winchester!

Old and Reliable · 10-27-2011, 06:37 PM

The time line for the 1912 to 12 roll stamping change was mid-1919, one of WRA's many "running changes" - w/o the sn- which are not 100% accurate anyway, especially following the semi-chaos of the post WW1 production era at WRA--!! the black diamond inset, and the pigeon for the pigeon grade at the top rearmost upper receiver section is correct-for 1918, also, the first series - aka- old milled style ventilated ribs were not available until about 1920-21 era- so the solid matted rib is also correct--

I also agree with the Gough- as his style was the deep incised favored by many engravers who did the apprenticeship with the 1880-1900 era "masters"- yes, it is my understanding that Mr. Gough was employed by AH Fox Gun Co. in Phila- then left to work for WRA until about 1918--I am not a "Foxist" but if you were to pose this question on their collectors assn. forum website thingy-and asked for examples of the early "graded' Fox guns as engraved by Mr. Gough- and then could compare that with the same grades done later- in the late 1920's- you would see the difference.

No Jap company or engraver could do this kind of work- they can copy- look at their 'iron-on" engraving on the Parker repros and compare- if you dare- that to the engraving done on the pre-1913 LC Smiths or DH(E) and up grade Parkers built from 1890 to 1925, just to pick a few reference points-

Your M1912 is original, scarce, and not only a treasure- but you can actually shoot and kill birds and clays "tombstone dead" with it, and so can you grandson, should you have one and care to leave it to him. Please don't even consider selling it-