Parker Gun Collectors Association Forums  

Go Back   Parker Gun Collectors Association Forums Parker Forums General Parker Discussions

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Parker values vs. AH Fox- in my "neck of the woods"
Old 12-08-2009, 03:43 PM   #1
Member
Francis Morin
Guest

Member Info
 
Posts: n/a

Default Parker values vs. AH Fox- in my "neck of the woods"

My first question to the Fox/TNB/Bo-Whoop cognoscenti here would be: Does this Fox HE made for TNB in 1927 have the "No Guaranteed" stamping on the barrel flats, as apparently some of the HE Fox guns did- meaning "Pattern" not the integrity of the barrel steel and construction.??

I have always held the late Nash Buckingham to be the "Top Shelf" of genteel Sportsmen no longer with us- and that list includes Paul Curtis, Hal Sheldon, William H. Foster, Ray P. Holland, Corey Ford and Gene Hill- and you will note they were all esteemed writers as well. I am fortunate to have many of their books in original editions, treasures I read and re-read oft times.

Part of the reason for my high regard for Nash was his loyalty to his friends, and his gracious Southern manners and respect for all ladies, not just his beloved wife Irma Witt Jones Buckingham. My late GrandFather taught me that you can judge the character of a man by how he treats his wife, his children and his bird dogs- Amen to that.

I recently bought (privately) a Fox 20 Sterlingworth- a Philadelphia mfg. gun with 26" open bored barrels, double triggers and extractors, unaltered, original black buttplate, about 85% blue and wood finish, 60% color casehardening- mechanically perfect 6 lbs. a great upland gun for shooting over a solid pointing dog indeed. I don't normally disclose what I have paid for a gun, anymore than I show my hole cards in poker to the man who folded his hand and surrendered the pot to me- But because the Fox/Parker value question was raised, the same party had a Meriden mfg. Parker VH 20 bore, size 0 frame, 28" Vulcan Steel barrels, DT., extractors for sale it has been sold now) in about the same very good condition as the Fox- and he was asking $3000 for the Parker--

As to whether the "Bo-Whoop" gun was "stolen" or "kept without looking for the proper owner"- and with his name clearly stamped on the barrel breech area, the gun was his property, and every effort should be made to return it to his heirs. The other guns he owned and sold while he was living, including the M21 "Award gun" and the second Becker 12 Magnum, sold to Dr. Andrews, that is indeed another situation, IMO.

His grandchildren should benefit from the sale of this historic shotgun, Nash stood for honor and decency and sportsmanship, this is the only right thing to do.

Why in Heaven's name did the "game agent" need to check a double gun for a three shot plug and would he think a gentleman of Nash's prestige would NOT have a valid hunting license and waterfowling stamp?

I recall two "Fox" experiences from past days- I had owned a altered 12 HE- 32" Full and extra Full- loved to use it for barn Pigeons when they return to silo, they usually have some altitude, but that Fox "nailed 'em"--it was so well fitted that it would not close completely on my reloads AA red hulls, only on factory new ones-I have since replaced it with a LC Smith 2E with 32" ventilated rib barrels- 2.5 lbs. lighter

My late GrandFather, who hunted with both 12 Parkers and a hammer 12 bore Purdey, had a close friend who owned a DE 12 Fox-we were out for pheasants one Saturday in early November, my Grandfather had picked up some Rem. 12 paper No. 6's at Howell & Clement Friday evening- Mr. Bontrager's Fox would NOT close with those new Remingtons- fortunately, he had some Ranger shells and those worked- My GrandFather later "miked" the brass heads and the unfired Remington shells were 0.0015" larger in dia. than the Ranger shells that worked in his friend's high grade Fox-!!

Last edited by Francis Morin; 12-09-2009 at 05:35 PM.. Reason: Forgot to capitalize B in Buckingham
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2009, 06:10 PM   #2
Member
Don Kaas
Forum Associate
 
Don Kaas's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 560
Thanks: 0
Thanked 225 Times in 93 Posts

Default

First, I hope both the Buckingham heirs, TNB's insurance company (whomever they were) seller, Julias and buyer end up happy. Where are the routine roll stamp markings? Even if the current markings were added (by or for NB) later the original barrel stampings or traces of them would exist. All other known Philadelphia Foxes that Becker worked on are marked with Fox barrel markings and nother other than a few stamp markings know to be used by Becker. Other well known Becker stocking touches are absent as well on this re-stocked gun. Most of the opinions on this gun I have read are by people who have never even seen a Becker made gun in the hand let alone owned one. It would be like a DHE Parker leaving Meriden in 1928 stamped "Made for Nash Buckingham by James Geary, Meriden, CT". This was a Fox factory ordered and shipped gun that Becker (who was merely a contractor there) may have had a hand in making. Unlike Bo Whoop II it was not a post 1932 "Becker" gun made and marked by him using a factory gun I hope this gun is Bo Whoop and I hope someone CAN prove this is Bo Whoop but right now the provenance of this gun is suspect but it is a factory HE/XE with out doubt. Many historical and physical contradictions exist, however When Dave is convinced, I'll be more convinced. If Tom Kidd says it is even better. Right now this is a Fox XE/HE that is thought to be Bo Whoop. As for Parkers being worth more than Foxes, TR's 1909 safari F grade changed hands privately for $450,000 almost 10 years ago. One of the most famous US presidents on the most famous safari ever taken and a gift gun that made the trip with absolutely impeccable provenance.
-Written from the shores of Beaver Dam Lake, Tunica, MS 12-09-09

Last edited by Don Kaas; 12-09-2009 at 07:02 PM..
Don Kaas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2009, 11:45 PM   #3
Member
Dean Romig
PGCA Invincible
Life Member
 
Dean Romig's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 33,230
Thanks: 39,410
Thanked 36,455 Times in 13,338 Posts

Default

John - Pardon the pun, but 'not by a long shot" have the legendary American SXS's been accounted for. Sure, maybe those owned by famous notables are thinning down but there are guns out there that will become legendary in and of themselves. Just today I was discussing with a couple of PGCA Members the (heretofore) rumored pair of looong barreled high-grade Parker .410s that went to the West Coast immediately before we became involved in WWII . . . rumor at this juncture but let's wait and see what happens. We may never hear more of them - they may become swept away from any possible knowledge by the likes of us or they may become public much like the Invincibles . . . time will tell. As for myself - I certainly won't be a player
Dean Romig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2009, 12:06 PM   #4
Member
Richard Flanders
PGCA Lifetime
Member
 
Richard Flanders's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 4,517
Thanks: 8,480
Thanked 5,545 Times in 1,719 Posts

Default

Go Francis! I noticed that in/on detail also. Had to be a typo. As I like to say, "the difference between mediocrity and excellence in nearly every aspect of life is little more than the attention to detail"....
Richard Flanders is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Richard Flanders For Your Post:
Another "eagle-eyed" Bush pilot perhaps??
Old 12-12-2009, 12:16 PM   #5
Member
Francis Morin
Guest

Member Info
 
Posts: n/a

Default Another "eagle-eyed" Bush pilot perhaps??

What is the saying about bush pilots? Old ones, Bold ones, but few "Old and Bold"--I also am curious as I just registered on James Julia's website and tried to find either AH Fox or Burt becker shotguns listed for the coming March 2010 auction-fest. NADA, yet PGCA member Jim Kucaba has a foto in his post from Jul;ia's of the 'gun in??" here- very interesting??
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2009, 02:08 PM   #6
Member
John Truitt
PGCA Lifetime
Member

Member Info
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 965
Thanks: 1,887
Thanked 1,077 Times in 339 Posts

Default

Mr. Morin,
Shes there. Just go to julias and click on highlighted gusn for the March auction. Keep scrolling down and it will show up.
John Truitt is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to John Truitt For Your Post:
Found It-- only one foto though
Old 12-12-2009, 02:28 PM   #7
Member
Francis Morin
Guest

Member Info
 
Posts: n/a

Default Found It-- only one foto though

How did the other fotos of this shotgun with the view of the barrel breechs and the "stamping and Burt Becker" come about. I went further, and the Fox XE 12 32" looked intersting, but like the "Bo-Whoop", way outta my league! thanks- I'll sip some Dickel on the rocks tonight with the football stuff on the tube, add another walnut chunk to the fire, and think about the fine Gentlemen from the Old Dominion-
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2010, 10:58 AM   #8
Member
hugh rather
PGCA Member
 
hugh rather's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 163
Thanks: 847
Thanked 120 Times in 43 Posts

Default

I have a question about BO-whoop.The stock that is broken has a checkered butt,right?If so Nash's Bo-whoop had a recoil pad[someone identified this pad's brand in another post somewhere].Someone hypothesized that perhaps the broken stock was a replacement Nash had done but not written about[Mr. Highsmith of Mason gunsmiths was speculated]Mr. Highsmith was alive, I know, recently.Did anyone attempt to ask?
hugh rather is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2010, 01:47 PM   #9
Member
Autumn Daze
PGCA Lifetime
Member
 
Dave Suponski's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,919
Thanks: 4,392
Thanked 4,147 Times in 1,748 Posts

Default

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong but I think the consensess[sic] was the gun has had three stocks on it over it's lifetime.
__________________
"Much care is bestowed to make it what the Sportsman needs-a good gun"-Charles Parker
Dave Suponski is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Dave Suponski For Your Post:
Old 02-26-2010, 02:14 PM   #10
Member
hugh rather
PGCA Member
 
hugh rather's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 163
Thanks: 847
Thanked 120 Times in 43 Posts

Default

What happened to the other stock[the first] and who made the second stock?Also, does anyone have contact with Buckingham family members who would shed some light on the Bowhoop story?

Last edited by hugh rather; 02-26-2010 at 02:26 PM..
hugh rather is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to hugh rather For Your Post:
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:25 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 1998 - 2025, Parkerguns.org
Copyright © 2004 Design par Megatekno
- 2008 style update 3.7 avec l'autorisation de son auteur par Stradfred.