Need help evaluating case color

[Ray Masciarella]

Every time I get a new Julia's catalog, I realize I have not been properly trained in evaluating case color. Seems I'm too conservative. Would anyone share with me their opinion as to the amount of case color remaining on this frame? Thx, Ray

[Pa SxS]

I would say there is very little remaining on the receiver. Only a little around the dogs and none remaining on the water table. Still a beautiful gun.

[Dean Romig]

Ray, I would humbly disagree with Chuck and believe there is more case color than meets the eye. You need to photograph the gun on a neutral background. Your blue background washes out the color on the gun. Light to medium gray is the preferred neutral.

Please show us again with a different background.

BTW, I DO agree with Chuck that it is a beautiful A!!

Incidentally, do you have a "Squirrel Poster" to go with that wonderful gun??

[Ray Masciarella]

Dean, my ability to take photos is poor. My camera is junk. I can never get the right light. I tried to take these outside with some could cover. The blue background was a bad choice. I'll try again with the backgrounds you suggested.

That said, it has a lot of CCH. It is faded and hard to see because of the engraving. The blue you see is pretty accurate. What you don't see (because I can't get the right photos) is the pink colors. Especially on the floorplate. If you study the floorplate, you can tell there are faded pink colors with blue at the bottom.

I don't have the poster. Here is a better photo of my squirrel!

[Ray Masciarella]

BTW, one of the things that confuses me is how to judge faded colors. Sometimes I see a listing stating that a gun has 70-80% CCH, but they are faded. I think how can it be 80% if it is faded? I would think 80% is pretty close to new vivid colors. I think that is were I go wrong in my evaluations.

The thing about the gun shown is that the CCH is faded. The only place it is gone is on the fences and on the bottom of the frame at the hinge. Otherwise, there is CCH every where to some degree. A lot of pink but it is hard to see in the photos.

[Bindlestiff]

To your point. Is the percentage of case color determined by the percentage of vivid color remaining relative to when it was new or percentage of any color on the surfaces? It would seem to me that it must be percentage of any surface coverage because there is no way to know how vivid they were when new for a comparison to then.

[Ray Masciarella]

Robin, that is my confusion. If the test is any CCH, then it could be gray or brown. Certainly not what is was originally. On the other hand, if CCH determines a condition of a gun as to compared to new, fading must be taken into account. For example, a 100% gun connotes original factory conidtion. The CCH can't be faded or turned color in that case.

I guess what confuses me is color vs. orginality.

[Bill Murphy]

If there were color on every surface of that A Grade, would that be 100% remaining case color. Not in my lifetime, for sure. I would grade the A Grade at zero remaining case color if I were advertising it for sale. Great gun, by the way.

[Dean Romig]

In my humble opinion case color remaining, not worn off, even if it has gone to gray, is what should be considered when specifying percentage remaining. I'm sure there are those collectors (like Murphy...) who would insist on only vivid color remaining, but that formula would not necessarily speak to the 'wear' factor.

[Ray Masciarella]

Bill and Chuck say there is no CCH even though it can be palinly seen in the photos. Dean says there is CCH there and it doesn't matter what color is so long as it isn't worn off. These gentlemen are know much more then me. No wonder I'm confused.

I tend to agree with them all to some point. To me, condition has to judged against orginality. I repectfully disagree with Bill that there is 0% CCH. If the vividness was the only test, than nearly all guns would be 0% under Bill's standard since most all guns do not have vivid colors. In other words, a gun that was never used, stored in a gun cabinet for 120 years, having all of its color but faded by time, would be 0%. That can't be.

Now Dean says all that matter is that it is there. So that same gun stored in the gun cabinet would be 100% even if all the color faded away and only greyish hues remained. That can't be either.

Figuring out the percentage of the frame that has CCH on it is fairly simple. It is just a matter of measuring the coverage. The most wear is at the squirrel. Even the fences have a little CCH. The rest if it has CCH except for the sharp edges and a few other spots. I'd say the coverage is 70% holding it in my hand. None of it is vivid. It is all faded to varying extent. So under Dean's standard, it is 70% and under Bill's it is still 0%. Each standard is simple to apply.

I guess my standard is that it is some where in between, but where? How much of a deduction should there be as a result of it not being as vivid as the day it was made?

Everyone can establish there own standards. My guess is that most of Bill's guns are 0% except for those that have been hermetically sealed for decades. On the other hand, probably all of Dean's guns have CCH to him.

Maybe the better question for me to ask is whether there is any generally accepted industry standard for making the evaluation (as opposed to asking personal opinions)? Something that can be applied objectively (and I don't mean Bill and Dean's standards cannot because they can). If so, where do I find it? Does anyone know what standard Julia's uses? (I have to say their evaluations are begining to make more sense to me).