Parker vs L.C. Smith guns

[Stepmac]

I'm not a big time collector...not rich, but over the years I have purchased some nice old guns. I own two Parkers, a GH 12 and an SBT C grade. Nice guns. I also own an L.C. Smith (Elsie if you will) and I like it. Mine is a basic edition of the gun, an O grade Probably made around 1900. My GH was probably made at the same time. (I have not researched either gun.) The Elsie balances nicely, works fine, has nice damascus barrels, as does my GH. So tell me all of you gun gurus out there....which is better? BTW: I kind of like the feel and heft of the Elsie.

[Dylan Rhodes]

Which do you like? That one is better.

I guess the only thing worth mentioning to me is that the LC's have a bad rap about cracking behind the lock plates, and you can see this corroborated by browsing available guns on the common auction sites. Also, the action on those is much more complicated, and they made many more of them. The rest is opinion...but they seem to be heavier.

if your asking which one is higher "grade" of gun - the GH definitely. Its a few steps up the ladder for Parkers offering (Trojan, VH, PH, GH) where the 0 grade was rung one to LC.

[Timothy Cicora]

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder .

With that said. Beauty ? My opinion . I would have to give the nod to the LC's . The side lock guns in my my opinion look classier . Box lock guns really have to Jazz it up to play catch up . There is a reason in my opinion why some manufactures add false side plates to box lock guns.

Better as in durability ? My opinion . I will have to say I will give that to Parker . As mentioned there is a lot going on with the side locks. Finicky . Pressure on the plates and screws. ect. Wood issues .

Better as in handling ? My opinion . That's up to you. I like all types of shotguns. I shoot all types / brands of shotguns so that's part of the fun for me. If I was super serious about shooting scores I would stick to one brand and gauge .

[Lloyd McKissick]

LC Smith is a case study in how things can devolve over time. I'll spare you the history lesson (although it is a very interesting story) but simply put, it all started in Syracuse, New York with a small maker who largely hand-made very effectively designed shotguns. They were initially funded (& named) by Lyman C. Smith, a larger-than-life industrialist (who went on to build his own skyscraper in Seattle). Another big New York industrialist family, the Hunter Brothers, bought the original company from Mr. Smith (Lyman's next big adventure was building typewriters, ever hear of Smith-Corona?) they then moved the entire gunmaking operation to Fulton, New York. In Fulton, the Hunters (essentially 5 brothers who got a job in a company bought by their father) set about to scale-up (modify) the original LC Smith shotgun design to better facilitate mass-production. It took them about 25-years but Hunter Arms finally "succeeded", eventually ramping-up production to churn out about a half a million guns. The earlier products (from Syracuse) were essentially works of art, with even the entry level guns (Quality 2) being very well finished, the last guns (in the 1940s) were cheapened to the point where they barely resembled the original design. Pre-1913, Smith guns were still well made (w/lots of hand-assembly & finishing), post 1913...well, it became something of a crapshoot after that. Higher-end guns could still be quite artfully executed, but the vast majority were bottom-end guns (i.e., the "Field Grades") and they got progressively less well-made over time. They switched from English walnut stocks to American walnut around then and the infamous stock cracking problems became more pronounced.

If yours is an "O" grade gun then it's pre-1913 and should be a fairly decent firearm. It's a sidelock while your Parkers are boxlock guns so... there are some differences in geometry. But the rest of it is mostly just advertising (Elsies are the crudest of the sidelock designs when compared to the British versions). I "rediscovered" Elsie a few years ago (my first double was an inherited Elsie Field Grade) and I've thoroughly enjoyed the education (& the history lesson).



A 1940s gun as compared to an 1891 gun.



A 1st year Fulton gun (1890), made from actions & wood supplied by the earlier Syracuse operation. Compare it to the 1940s gun above.

[John Davis]

“which is better?”

The Parker.

[B. Dudley]

When it comes to Smiths, I am not really a fan.

[Researcher]

All of the vintage North American doubles have their issues but while Alexander T. Brown's rotary bolt was a good idea, much of the rest of the hammerless L.C. Smith design was not. Read Dewey's assessment of them and you'd send them all down the river of commerce.

I own all the others, Parker, Fox (all three companies), Ithaca, Baker, Remington & Lefever and many of the more obscure makes Tobin, Baltimore Arms, the American Arms Co. Whitmore, Parry, etc., but no L.C. Smiths.

[Stepmac]

My Elsie is an "O" grade which means it came before the "00" grade and made sometime prior to or in 1913. My Elsie has very nice wood. Not a whit of engraving anywhere. Damascus barrels, but it is very difficult to see the twist pattern. My GH is about the same age and also has very nice wood except for the forearm which is in pretty lousy shape, checkering almost gone, so someone shot the dickens out of it. F & F. The damascus pattern is not too clear. Both guns are pretty heavy. They are really quite similar and indeed the Elsie is a side lock which I prefer to the box lock, but of course the engraving on the GH is rather nice, a bit understated. Elsie has zip engraving...too bad.

[Stepmac]

Originally Posted by Dave Noreen

All of the vintage North American doubles have their issues but while Alexander T. Brown's rotary bolt was a good idea, much of the rest of the hammerless L.C. Smith design was not. Read Dewey's assessment of them and you'd send them all down the river of commerce.

I own all the others, Parker, Fox (all three companies), Ithaca, Baker, Remington & Lefever and many of the more obscure makes Tobin, Baltimore Arms, the American Arms Co. Whitmore, Parry, etc., but no L.C. Smiths.

I admire your shotgun collection, Researcher. I've got a Remington 1900, an American Arms Co (Knickerbocher) 20, Fox Sterly 12, Parker GH and SBT (C grade), Lefever I grade (Keith Kershur gun), Astra 12 nice engraving), W.C. Scott (It's in the mail), 2 Browning Auto fives (12 & 16), 2 Winchester Model 12s (12 &16) an SKB O/U 20, Miroku O/U 12, A Remy Model 31 TC...That's about it for shotguns. The prettiest one is the Auto five sixteen and the one I like to shoot the most is the Winy Model 12 16. It's a tight F choke. I also like to shoot the Remy 1900, it's light. My best gun is a mint artillery Lugar w holster. My great uncle got it off of a German officer in WWI. I asked him for details of how he got it. His reply, "He didn't need it anymore".

[Lloyd McKissick]

Elsies are big heavy American guns and they certainly have their detractors but...I have an nostalgic attachment to them still.



I even like their hammer guns (although I mostly use them all for targets).