Chamber lengths

[TARNATION !!!]

Hello: Back from extended absence. I see guns offered on various sites and have seen chamber lengths given or not given. I have seen 2 1/2 2 9/16 2 5/8 and 2 3/4. I have yet to see 3 or greater.

Question: Is there a progression over time up to the 2 3/4 that would correlate to serial numbers?

Were all 3 and above by special order?

Thanks for my continuing education.

PS: The "second chance gun -108603" parts soaked in penetrating oil for over two months. The most interesting piece was the forend latch lever and screws. The rust was extensive and for the most part it separated from the lever as a fragile layer as if the metal were a mold. The "rusty lace" disintegrated the instant I handled the bag containing it. No picture of that but it was an intriguing sight.

Jack

[Hammer Gun]

Jack, I believe that guns that were called to be 3" were actually bored 2- 7/8 I know my bhe 20gauge is that way. I do not know if all were bored less. I am sure Bill Murphy would know?

[Researcher]

Generally Parker Bros. had the policy of holding chambers 1/8 inch shorter then the intended shell. Prior to the Great War, American ammo manufacturers offered 12-gauge paper shells in 2 5/8, 2 3/4, 2 7/8, 3, and 3 1/4 inch lengths; 16-gauge paper shells were offered in 2 9/16, 2 3/4, 2 7/8, and 3-inch lengths; and 20-gauge paper shells were offered in 2 1/2, 2 3/4, 2 7/8, and 3-inch lengths. Chamber lengths may also vary by what the customer asked for. Very likely if the customer asked that his gun be "chambered for 3-inch shells", the chambers would in fact be 2 7/8 inch. If the customer requested that his gun "have 3-inch chambers", very likely that would be what the Brothers P. provided.

My gut feeling is that the great bulk of the Parker 12-gauge doubles we see offered today with chambers longer then 2 5/8 inch were lengthened sometime during their life.

Also, chamber gauges are not all that accurate. If the chamber is slightly undersize in diameter the gauge won't go in all the way to the break for the forcing cone and give a false short reading. If the chamber is a bit oversize, the plug will go in past the break into the forcing cone and give a false long reading.

[Austin W Hogan]

Dave has covered this pretty well. A carefull reading of Winchester Shotguns and Shotshells by Stadt shows that 2 3/4 in shells were labelled "for repeaters" on the box. The loading companies pretty well partitioned shells by high base and low base, with the shorter low base shells intended for older and double guns, through the beginning of WW 2. The idea about long shells in short chambers providing a better seal and better patterns did not surface until 1932, according to an article by Ed Muderlak in PP. There are apparentltly some guns made in the 1930's including M21 that followed this, but the 2 3/4 chamber became standard again after WW2.
Blade gauges may underestimate chamber length. The clearance at the mouth of the case is a major safety factor in the event of case failure.

Best Austin

[TARNATION !!!]

Thanks gentlemen, I appreciate the replies. I also just noted the "Posts" numbers on the "new" site. Seems strange to see some of the prolific writers with such a small number of posts.

I will be getting back to 108603 soon. I was hoping that the "old" site thread would be salvaged and appear with Parker restorations since there were so many pictures involved.

Another note on the "itis". I was warned back when I first tried to come up with a barrel set for the family history VH. I hunted with that for over 30 years and it was the only Parker in the safe. Never did come up with barrels but found a reasonable shooter. That made 2 in the safe. A forum member recalled I was looking for barrels and that is how "second chance gun" came about. That made 3 in the safe. Came up with a pretty nice condition VH, which I picked up a couple weeks ago. That makes 4 in the safe. I know I can quit anytime but.........

Cheers,
Jack

[Don Kaas]

In Winchester/Western put "for repeaters" on SOME boxes of shotshells in an attempt to induce consumers to assume a special suitability for the task and use them in their pumps and autos. I do not recall them stating "for repeaters only". I also do not recall ever seeing a "high brass" box of shotshells from the 1920s onwards the states "Not for use in double barreled guns". So where do we divine the "intention" of the shell companies to segment the market into high brass for repeaters and low brass for doubles? Viewing a couple pages of shotshell ammo in a 1930s Stoeger catalogue would not have lead a Depression era sport to that conclusion. As Dave has often stated, the Fox catalogues long before WW2 state their guns are for use with 2 3/4" ammunition and virtually all Foxes of the era had 2 5/8" chambers (as measured by many, many time...) As anyone who has actually fooled with this subject knows the expanded length of fired pre- WWII paper shells varies considerably (as does that of many modern plastic cases) thus in some case negating the nominal length stated for them. In many case this makes moot the "1/8". difference in chamber size. Also I would not "blame the tool" so much. The Galazan brass blade chamber gauge is pretty darn accurate in my experience and can be relied upon when compared to bore micrometer measurements or go/no go English style chamber sizing plugs checks of the chamber size 95% of the time.

[Greg Miller CTGunLaw]

2 3/4" = 2 12/16ths, less 1/8th (2/16th) would mean that a 2 3/4" inch parker would have have a 2 10/16 chamber? Lots of our guns are 2 9/16ths. Given that the chamber is a slope, seems hard to believe that the 1/16th would be a great challenge. Are there brands of 2 3/4" which are typically safe in 2 9/16th chambers, if we stick to say 2 3/4 drams with 1oz of shot? I know lots of guns are unlikely to fail with much hotter loads per Sherman Bell, but are we wasting a lot of money and going to great trouble to get 2 1/2" shells for our 2 9/16th Inch chamber Parkers.

Obviously, this assumes tha a gunsmith has examined the gun and found it to be in proper and safe condition.

Anyone brave enough to hazard an opinion, or at least experience.

[TARNATION !!!]

I can't give opinion and the only experience I have that "might" relate is the catastrophic barrel failure on the family VH with Vulcan steel barrels. I say "might" as the barrels had rattled around a car trunk for years, causing some dents. My Dad bought it in 1952 and also reloaded "hot" for those long shots, a probable cause for some barrel bulges. The gun only saw 2 3/4 inch hulls, either Canucks or Imperials when commercial ammo was purchased. I removed all the dents and bulges in the late '70's and I continued to use the gun until 2003 when the barrel blew. I had been using low pressure commercial 2 3/4 shells but I also had a bunch of re-loads from a friend who got out of shooting. I had only used those in a Winchester pump or SKB XL900 auto (my backups). Unfortunately, I had some of those in my jacket and forgot I was not using them in the Parker. Who knows exactly why the barrel blew. I tend to think it was due to the dents/bulges causing a fatigue issue.

I recall another member wrote on the pressures involved and the "slight" increase created by 2 3/4 shells due to the crimp entering the forcing cone when fired. Maybe that could be found on the old site if those threads still exist.

Regards,
Jack

[Dollar Grade]

Anyone ever measured a 12ga in either hammer or early hammerless with 3" chambers??? I have 5 Parker marked brass hulls, 4 of which were nickel plated and all of them measure out at exactly 3" overall length. I have not seen or heard of any early 12ga guns with 3" chambers. Apparently somone had one made in that configuration. These hulls will not completely chamber in any of my 12ga guns.

I did have a 10ga hammer gun that was ordered with 3" chambers.

Kurt

[J.B. Books]

Originally Posted by Dave Noreen

Generally Parker Bros. had the policy of holding chambers 1/8 inch shorter then the intended shell.

If indeed this was actual policy/practice why did it not extend to the 10ga or did it? The Parker 10 ga guns I am aware of including early guns with square chambers were 2 7/8". Does anyone have a 10ga with with chambers shorter than 2 7/8"? If so it would be interesting to hear the details.