Shotshell pressures circa 1906

[Cold Spring]

Here's a neat advert dated May 19, 1906. Check out pressure specs for "ordinary loads" and the composite barrels shown.

[Double Lab]

Thanks Frank. There's those dangerous damascus barrels again.

[charlie cleveland]

mighty nice ithaca showed here...looks like those boys in 06 was shooting about the same loads of pressure that we do today... i ve been shooting damascuss gun s for about 55 years with no problems lots of old green remington high brass as gone down the barrels of these old guns ive owned with no problems other than maybe a sore shoulder....charlie

[Drew Hause]

The 1933 edition of ”Smokeless Shotgun Powders” by Wallace Coxe and E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Co. reported the LUP pressure for 1 1/4 oz. 3 Dram Eq. of DuPont Bulk Smokeless at 9,600. Modern piezoelectric pressure would be about 10% higher.

In the 1928 edition, Coxe reported 3 1/2 Dram Eq. 1 1/4 oz. loads:
DuPont Bulk Smokeless powder - 11,700 psi
Schultze Bulk Smokeless powder - 11,800 psi
28 grains of Ballistite - 12,600 psi
Note: Pressures are beyond the modern SAAMI recommendation for 2 3/4" 12g of 11,500 psi.

DuPont Bulk, Schultze, "E.C." (all bulk) and Ballistite and Infallible (both Dense) were available in most c. 1906 shells, and 3 1/2 Dram Eq. with 1 1/4 oz. shot would be a common "Pigeon Load".

[Bruce Day]

In the early 1920's SAAMI service load maximums for 12ga 2 3/4" nominal were running 10,500psi, so some of these loads were over that. With Parkers of the era and before intended for 10,500 service loads, a person can understand that a steady diet of those heavy commercial loads of the time could loosen the jointing and stock.

Bringing those circumstances to present day, the same loads are still there. The manufacturers will tell you that their 3 1/2 dram 1 1/4 oz loads are ideal for pheasant and are at the SAAMI max. We were seeing one maker put up 100 shell specials at the Mitchell SD Cabelas made of 3 1/2 dram 1 3/8 loads of #4 shot. Really 11,500?? The ads were that was what a person needed for the 3 bird a day weekend.

The Ithaca ad is interesting because within 20 years the president of Ithaca would be touting his guns now made with fluid steel barrels and encouraging sportsmen to buy new guns because he alleged that the old Damascus barrels were likely to blow up at any moment. Forty thousand pounds! The few tests to destruction that have been done on 12ga 2 frame Parker 12's blew at around 28,000 pounds. What was the wall thickness of those Ithaca's ? .060 min and .180 at four?

[Dean Romig]

There are plenty of records in the Parker Bros. order books of guns going back to "tighten action".... I can't imagine why

[Kensal Rise]

Originally Posted by Bruce Day

...The Ithaca ad is interesting because within 20 years the president of Ithaca would be touting his guns now made with fluid steel barrels and encouraging sportsmen to buy new guns because he alleged that the old Damascus barrels were likely to blow up at any moment... What was the wall thickness of those Ithaca's ? .060 min and .180 at four?

After a lengthy career in advertising, I can confidently tell you the objective behind this early 20th century advert drivel is... Sales! Why?

1) Fluid steel barrels were just getting popular, and few sportsmen wanted the old Damascus.

2) Some other underhanded ad men put out some baloney that Damascus barrels would blow up with nitro powders. These characters were probably employed by a competing gun company trying to sell more fluid steel barrels.

3) Ithaca did not want to get stuck with a back room full of Damascus barrels.

4) They bored 'em thick and told the ad men to make up some believable copy that the unwashed would bite on. But Ithaca knew they were safe barrels to begin with.

5) The sporting pubs made more ad revenue.

A happy ending.

[Drew Hause]

The Ithaca "double thick nitro breech" bs started about 1900



1903




L.C. Smith started the "broad breech" marketing back in 1886 while still in Syracuse



And Hunter Arms the "Guaranteed Never to Shoot Loose With Nitro Powder" about 1897



One way Lou Smith found to dispose of the Damascus tubes; previously shared by Brad Bachelder. 1922 Lefever Arms Co. (Ithaca) Nitro Special (introduced in 1921) with fluid steel right and 3 Iron "Oxford" left tube stamped IHR, likely Heuse-Riga Fils known to supply damascus tubes on Flues models. Barrels were originally blued



I'm thinking the barrel finisher knew

[Bruce Day]

Interesting, Doc. The couple ( 2) Parkers I have examined that I thought were probably originally blued ( barrels only, not the frame) had significantly mismatched tubes.

I have posted photos of one of those here before with bluing removed as an example.

[Drew Hause]

Thanks Bruce.

More from Lou, and patently false in light of Sherman Bell's destructive testing

Jack O'Connor Outdoor Life 1942
A good many people resent being told that their much loved old guns were no longer safe. Just for the fun of it, Lou Smith (President of Ithaca Gun Co.) proofed (using 17,500 psi Proof Loads in 1942) a dozen or so damascus and twist beauties which were lying around the plant. Here's the dope: Most of the old timers busted loose with the first proof shell. The rest did with the second. Guns tried were cheap, medium priced and expensive: but all of them went. So if anyone wants to go ahead using modern smokeless stuff in a gun built for black powder, he can; but he can include me out.
Reviewing the findings Lou writes: "These birds who persist in using smokeless powder in twist and damascus barrels remind me of the guy who made a living by sticking his head in the lion's mouth at the circus. He got away with it for a long time; then one day he didn't!"