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-   -   Waste of time, or....? (https://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=32865)

John Cleveland 03-23-2021 09:41 PM

Waste of time, or....?
 
I have a Parker lifter hammer that my father found in the attic of a house he bought, probably in the late 1940's or early 1950's. It was/is in terrible shape. In the late 50's, he had the firing pins cut off, the front section of the top rib, which had come loose, soldered back in place, put adhesive tape around the cracked stock near the block, and gave it to me to play with. For some reason, probably sentimental, I kept it around, though we thought that it probably was ready for the junk pile. As I matured and learned that it was a Parker and the value of them, I always felt sick that someone had so poorly treated the gun, but considering its condition, didn't spend any time thinking about it. Later, my sons played with it in learning about guns. Sometimes in the field or drinks after, I would lament its fate, but it was discussed like you would a dead relative--a sad loss, but over with.

Then, today, at a hunting preserve training my dog, sitting around afterwards, talk turned to the Parker that the trainer had, and the L.C. Smith another hunter had. As usual, I raised my lament. Surprisingly, the hunter stopped me and said that maybe I should check with Turnbull Restorations, that they can do amazing things. I thought that might be very unlikely, but I came home to look at their website. That got me thinking at least, maybe I can figure out the model and age of the gun, if nothing else for curiosity's sake. That led me to this site, and a lot of looking at resources here.

Turns out that SN 15313 was shown in your SN list as manufactured in 1879 (although there appears to be engraving on the forearm release that looks like "TD MAR 25, 1878" . It is apparently a model U with Damascus barrels and a straight English stock. Aside from the stock, it looks like the Grade 2 section link to pictures of lifter hammer guns, which shows a Grade U gun.

So, I am wondering about where a U model fits into the scheme of grades. I don't find it specifically listed on the grade description page, though it shows up in pictures linked from the Grade 2 section. Is there any thing distinguishing it from Grade 2, or other grades?

Finally, after dismissing the gun all these years, the idea of some kind of restoration is intriguing. I seriously doubt it could be restored to significant value, but an expert might be able to make it an attractive display for, say, over a mantle. Maybe after all it has been through, it deserves some love for being a survivor. Does anyone know anything about Turnbull Restoration?

Gary Carmichael Sr 03-24-2021 09:33 AM

Jon, Some photos of the old girl would help us with identifying what you have, should be a grade 2 under lifter straight stock with 30" Damascus barrels, Gary

Dean Romig 03-24-2021 09:38 AM

Doug Turnbull runs a great operation restoring these old guns. His shop turns out some really nice work. There are others however, who can produce equally nice work.

The checkering, especially on the forend - if it is still evident there, can give a clue to the grade of the gun, that and the engraving on the lock plates and elsewhere on the frame.

You should post some pictures here on this thread.





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John Cleveland 03-24-2021 10:35 AM

Thanks! I will post some shortly. I almost hesitate, because it may be as painful for others as it is for me to see its condition.

John Cleveland 03-24-2021 10:41 AM

BTW, after looking at some pictures here and restored guns on Turnbull, I think that the "TD MAR 25, 1878" is a patent date marking. I will show it in the pictures.

What resolution should I use? They will be iPhone 12 pictures which are quite detailed, but quite large.

Andrew Sacco 03-24-2021 12:24 PM

Mid to low resolution is fine for the screen. I'm looking forward to photos. I've seen one or two Turnbull restorations up close and personal. Stunning. Sit down if you decide to get a quote : )

John Cleveland 03-24-2021 12:54 PM

9 Attachment(s)
Hope these are good enough:

Dean Romig 03-24-2021 01:08 PM

Wow - that one’s been rode hard!

Judging by the “knot” in the bow-tie checkering of the forend it is a grade-2 or G. That’s called the three-point checkering pattern. A grade-1 wouldn’t have the knot in the bow-tie.





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John Cleveland 03-24-2021 01:25 PM

Do you know how the U stamped on it figures into the grade?

Dean Romig 03-24-2021 01:42 PM

1 Attachment(s)
I had given my opinion on the significance of the U several months ago but I was pooh-pooh’d so I’l let others express their opinions.

This picture describes what I had posted then but I didn’t provide a picture then to support my opinion. And here it is for those who may have doubted.



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Harold Lee Pickens 03-24-2021 02:51 PM

Wow, rough. How are the bores--that is the key if you want to shoot it. Restoration will probably come to more than what you could buy a decent Parker shooter for, still, a straight grip underlever is cool. A money pit for sure, but many of us have our money pits also.

John Cleveland 03-24-2021 02:53 PM

Interesting. So the U reflects a feature, not a grade. On the site's grade description page, a 2 is listed as E, F, G, or H for hammer guns. How would I determine which of those it is?

John Cleveland 03-24-2021 03:01 PM

"Wow, rough. How are the bores--that is the key if you want to shoot it."

Good question. I don't think I am qualified to evaluate, other than to say it looks "dirty". Not sure what the dirt is. Am I risking any thing to use modern bore cleaners and brushes? Still, I couldn't say myself whether they have shooting integrity. Do I need a Parker expert? Not sure I would trust a modern gunsmith on Damascus barrels.

Money pit may be an understatement! I don't know what I don't know. FOR NOW, it has admiration for it as a survivor in its favor.

John Cleveland 03-24-2021 03:03 PM

But, I guess if I sent it in for evaluation for restoration, experts like Turnbull could say if it were shootable--if restored. Questions, Questions!

Andrew Sacco 03-24-2021 03:21 PM

Where are you located? If anyone knows someone close to you that is qualified they'll let you know.

Dean Romig 03-24-2021 03:25 PM

The letter grade on grade 2 Lifters is determined by grip style and the gauge of the gun.





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John Cleveland 03-24-2021 05:31 PM

I'm located near Gainesville, GA

John Cleveland 03-24-2021 05:37 PM

Dean, sorry, somehow I overlooked your citing it as a G because of the "Bow tie", when I asked how to decide its grade.

charlie cleveland 03-24-2021 07:05 PM

work on the gun your self if the barrels are shootable you can fix the old gun....you can watch ebay for a stock....clean the barrels out with a steel brush on a drill..wipe out with clean ragsans see how deep the pits are...if not to deep go ahead with looking for a stock...now shell not be new with you and friends working on it but ya ll can get her shooting again with not a lot of money in her...I fixed a parker in worse condition than your gun and have shot it probably a 100 times now with low pressure loads....and I m not a very good gunworker....lots of luck.... charlie

Mike McKinney 03-24-2021 07:36 PM

There are several folks all around Georgia and Western North Carolina that will be happy to help you be advised of a reasonable choice. I live in Maggie Valley, NC and will be glad to help you evaluate the Parker. You should also join our organization as you may have the beginnings of Parkeritis. It’s a wonderful disease.

John Cleveland 03-24-2021 07:46 PM

Charlie, thanks. I was wondering if I could run a bronze brush through it, and whether to use Hoppes or similar with it. Will try it. BTW, good last name :)

John Cleveland 03-24-2021 07:50 PM

Thanks, Mike. Maggie Valley is a beautiful area. When I was a kid, I went to Camp Hemlock around there. I learned to ski at Cataloochee.

Not sure if I will be free to travel up there any time soon, but if the opportunity develops, I will try to check with you. Not sure how to use the PM, but I guess I can learn.

If there is anyone in the Metro Atlanta area, I get down there fairly often.

John Cleveland 03-24-2021 09:08 PM

Charlie, I ran a bronze brush with solvent through one barrel with a drill 3-4 times. Still pretty dirty looking. May be too pitted. I am guessing that I need a top quality gunsmith with proper equipment to really make that call.

Thanks for the advice.

Mike Koneski 03-25-2021 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike McKinney (Post 330099)
There are several folks all around Georgia and Western North Carolina that will be happy to help you be advised of a reasonable choice. I live in Maggie Valley, NC and will be glad to help you evaluate the Parker. You should also join our organization as you may have the beginnings of Parkeritis. It’s a wonderful disease.


Just be advised that "Perkeritis" is incurable.

Bill Murphy 03-25-2021 10:06 AM

Take your gun on a trip to the Southern Side by Side in April in Sanford, NC. PGCA has a booth manned by Parker experts and many other experts will be on site. The Southern is the best side by side shotgun event within a thousand miles of your home. U, as listed in the Serialization Book, is a "type" of gun, an underlifter. In grades, a U denotes a grade within the 0 or zero quality realm. The "U", describing an underlifter is not a stamp on a gun in my experience.

John Cleveland 03-25-2021 01:31 PM

Thanks! Unfortunately, my family has other plans for me that weekend. I will keep it in mind, if that changes.

That being the case, I saw recommendations on this forum for Bill Schwarz in Ellijay, GA. That is only an hour away from me, reasonable to drive for an evaluation. Does anyone know if he is still working or have many here had experience with him?

Gerald McPherson 03-25-2021 01:39 PM

John; Bill is a very good Parker smith. 706 296 7688

Gerald McPherson 03-25-2021 01:44 PM

John check your pm.

Jim DiSpagno 03-25-2021 01:47 PM

Bill has done work for me in the past and is a talented Smith and well versed in Parkers

John Cleveland 03-30-2021 11:28 PM

Thanks for the recommendations. I have talked to Bill, who was very courteous. I plan to take the gun to him for evaluation as soon as my work schedule allows (he does not work weekends, and does not do computers).

John Cleveland 04-13-2021 03:21 PM

BTW, the number above is a typo. The correct number for Bill: 706-276-7668.

John Cleveland 08-04-2022 11:08 PM

Was it a waste of time? Hell No! Successful Restore!
 
First, I want to thank all of you who responded to my initial post. AND, I especially want to thank those who referred me to Bill Schwarz as an excellent restoring gunsmith.

In my initial post, I questioned whether trying to restore the gun was a waste of time. I got some good guidance from this group.

Today, I picked up the gun from Bill. I had no idea what kind of restoration awaited me. It was beyond my best expectations! It could not have been the same gun!

It is beautiful, and he proofed it with RTS shells, so I can shoot it—-if RTS and their peers ever get back into production from supply chain problems.

There are some “before” photos earlier in this thread. I will post some “after” photos shortly.

Meanwhile, I cannot recommend Bill Schwarz any more highly. Thanks again to those who connected me to him.

John Cleveland 08-04-2022 11:38 PM

After Pics
 
10 Attachment(s)
Unfortunately, the size limitation on files limits the resolution of details like Damascus pattern and engraving, but the pics get the idea across.

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John Cleveland 08-04-2022 11:50 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Just to give a one quick comparison “before” being brought back from the dead:

Attachment 108994

Stan Hillis 08-05-2022 07:18 AM

John, what a transformation, and a testimony to the abilities of Bill. Thanks so much for sharing the results with us. This will likely cause a backlog at Bill's, after all the Parker guys see these results. :rotf:

Mills Morrison 08-05-2022 07:33 AM

Now that is very cool! I hope you join PGCA as you clearly have the interest. I know you feel a lot of pride in rescuing that old gun

Harold Lee Pickens 08-05-2022 08:27 AM

Beautiful restoration or shall I say resurrection.

charlie cleveland 08-05-2022 09:26 AM

looking real good now go shoot her.....charlie

John Cleveland 08-05-2022 12:13 PM

"looking real good now go shoot her.....charlie"

Charlie, I plan to WHEN I can get low pressure loads. RST, and everybody else seems to be out of stock--supply chain.... Not sure when I, or anyone else will get some.

I welcome any leads to sources.

Richard Flanders 08-05-2022 03:06 PM

Now, that is absolutely beyond incredible. Who would have guessed it would come out THAT gorgeous! I didn't think there was a chance in hell that you'd get anyone to restore it. Bravo for persevering and going the extra 50mi on that one!! This gun will most certainly reset the standard of whether someone will get what seems like a total wreck of a gun restored or not. You are my hero John!! Had I spent the money to restore that gun I wouldn't regret it for even one micro-second!


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