Ithaca 20 ga Flues vs Fox Sterlingworth 20 ga
 

How would you compare an Ithaca 20 ga Flues with its Fox counterpart, a Fox Sterlingworth 20 ga.? Assume both guns are in all original and excellent condition.

What are the pros & cons of each? If you had the Ithaca, would you sell or trade it for the Sterlingworth? Again, assume both guns are comparable in condition and specs. (20 ga, mod/improv, 28" bbls etc.)

Would you rather have the Ithaca or the Fox Sw?

Allen;
I think the Flues is a nice gun but I would opt for the Sterlingworth. Much nicer handling IMHO and very reliable.

I feel the Fox is the better gun, but those little Ithacas were sweet. I had a Grade 1 1/2 20 that for some reason I traded for a Rem 1187 Upland 20 for my son. Isure wish I had that gun back. It was just a shooter, but would have made a great project gun. I regret getting rid of it--now my son kind of likes doubles-crap!

Daryl and Harold, I've been looking at a Fox SW 20 ga all original condition at one of our local gun shops. The Fox has been there for quite a while (there's not a great demand for doubles in this area - so the 3 local gunshops that I frequent tell me). All serial numbers match, bores are bright, bluing on barrels is 95%. Only issue I have is some idiot blued the frame rather than leaving it alone or case coloring it. The good news though is they didn't buff it down much at all and the Fox SW lettering and what I would call the trim around the frame engraving is still strong. I just wish whoever blued the frame would have left it alone or had it re-case colored but not blued. Asking price is $1,200 but the shop owner is practically begging me to make an offer, any offer. I have an Ithaca Flues 20 ga in excellent condition that I had committed to my son in law that I'd hold for our grandson but frankly the Fox holds more appeal than the Ithaca. So, I'm trying to decide which way to go.

Allen;
I would'nt worry about the blued frame as long as the rest of the gun is in good condition. (barrels ring, tight on face and wood in good condition, etc.) You can always remove the bluing. I'd offer him $800-$900 and go from there. Is it an ejector gun and what length are the barrels? Even if you had to pay the full $1200 in my book that would'nt be the worst deal you ever made.

Every time I sell a gun, I seem to regret it--in saying that I have been thinking about selling the better of my 2 Sterlingworth 20,s. Both are Utica Foxes, the one still has a fair amount of cc, good blue and wood, and 28" barrels. My best friend has first dibs on the gun for his son's grad present. If your other gun doesn't work out, let me know. I have never carried it hunting yet, as I was shooting my 16 SW very well this year( and my 16 VH).

Daryl,
The barrels are 26 ", ring ok and gun is very tight on face. Barrels uncut. I looked in Fox site to get more info on this gun. It's a 1937 20 ga and 26" barrels was a common config. 2 3/4 chambers. ser# 270633. Later model 20 ga gun. wood shows no cracks etc. finish is still good. I'm sorely tempted, just have to convince my son in law now.

Thanks Harold, I'll keep your offer in mind. First step is to inform my son in law that we're going in a different direction, then sell the Ithaca. The 20 Fox SW at the local gun shop isn't going anywhere soon. I too hunt with a 16 ga (VH) for upland and have most of my life except for ducks. Could never bring myself to take the VH out on open salt water. A 20 ga for my grandson is a nice gauge for him to start out with. And what better way to 'corrupt' is soul than to introduce him to the world of double guns!

Allen,
that sounds like a pretty nice gun, especially if you can pick it up for a grand. Those Savage/Utica Foxes are chambered 2 3/4 , so you dont have to worry about that, and generally the dimensions are more modern. Mine is 28" chked ic/m, with a 14 1/4 lop and seems to have 2 5/8" DAH or less. Remember what they used to say about Fox gunsmiths-- there aren't many cause Foxes never broke down.

I think he'll go for around $900

I think the later foxes had the silvery frame. Pretty sure you can strip the bluing from frame if desired. I paid 1400.00 for mine several years ago. 1200. seems reasonable. I had to have an early Ithaca, shot it a few times now it sets while I take the Parkers and the Fox out. A fox 20 and 16 are very nice field companions.

My Philly Fox SW, bought several years ago from Ivory Beads' Jim and Jerry, ranks up there with my Parker Repro 20 as far as handling goes. Light and tight, it will serve all day in the woods and chasing clays. No disrespect to the Ithacas. Made American is what it's all about!

I think you're correct about the frame David. I should have taken my camera yesterday when I last looked at this 20ga fox sw. The shop owner practically grabbed me by the arm as I was leaving to make an offer, "any reasonable offer". I had the gun apart as I wanted to look it over well and was telling him how disappointed I was that the previous owner had blued the receiver. We'll see.

the bluing is most likely a cold blue - it will wear off quickly with use, and Birchwood Casey makes a cold blue remover if it botheres you too much.

personally - IMHO - the Fox is a much better gun. There is a reason Ithaca went to the NID to compete.

that price isn't bad - a 20 Sterlingworth without issues would go for much more in an area where doubles sell. I have looked at a couple lately in that same range. One was a 26" poorly restocked with old Bishop wood. the other was 28" and had some finish/wear issues but was on face. If this shop doesn't move doubles easily he may well bargin on it.

Allen - buy it. You will not regret having a little SW 20 with 26" barrels. As recommended, grab some BC remover if you need immediate gratification, but it probably will wear quickly.

What else can you find for under $1000 that would bring the kind of satisfaction that you'll get from that little Fox? Not much in my opinion. And given that they were the Fox bargain gun.....essentially an "everyman's shotgun", it is an amazingly well built piece that takes a beating and keeps on ticking!

Allen, I don't remember seeing the gun post on the Fox site and if I missed it this could be redundant. The serial number you cited is certainly a Sterlingworth number but the factory was doing some funky things to survive in the late 1930's. Fox SP/SPE Grade guns were made with blued frames and somewhat different barrel breech dimensions and are quite rare. The blued frame on the gun you're looking at, with everything else looking original, sounds odd and intriguing to me. It's also know that Savage execs had some leeway to get special features done on production guns. You might check the frame bar (water table) to see if "SP" is stamped anywhere. This is a very very long shot but if it turns out you'll want to go buy a megalotto ticket too. Frank

When Ithaca introduced the Flues Model in 1909, they were making their smallbore very light and delicate.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...ghtFluesAd.jpg

These are the guns often seen with cracked frames.

These guns were probably fine with the light 2 1/2 inch shells they were designed for, but North American Nimrods of the more is better ilk were for sure stuffing the heaviest loads they could buy in these little wands, and Ithaca saw they had a problem. By the mid-1920s, Ithaca had beefed up their Flues doubles quite a bit. In the 1912 through at least 1915 Ithaca catalogues they give their smallbore weights as --

16-ga 5 3/4 to 6 1/4
20-ga 5 1/4 to 5 3/4
28-ga 4 3/4 to 5 1/4

In the July 1919, Ithaca catalogue --

16-ga 5 lbs. 14 ozs. to 6 1/2
20-ga 5 1/2 to 6
28-ga 5 to 5 1/2

In the December 1, 1919, Ithaca catalogue --

16-ga 6 to 6 3/4
20-ga 5 3/4 to 6
28-ga 5 1/4 to 5 3/4

In the 1925 Ithaca catalogue --

16-ga 6 1/4 to 6 3/4
20-ga 6 to 6 1/2
28-ga 5 3/4 to 6 1/4

Savage didn't actually begin stating their Fox doubles were chambered for 2 3/4 inch shells until the second printing of the brown "art deco" Fox catalogue, usually found with 1938 or 1939 Retail Price sheets --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...ps9a17792c.jpg

From about 1939, the Savage built Fox doubles were stamped on the left barrel --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...ted12Gauge.jpg

This stamp is also found on Fox doubles of any vintage that were sent back to Savage for service and rechambered to 2 3/4 inches and reproofed.

The Ithaca Flues 20 ga that I have is ser# S377944 which is 1924 vintage. It is rugged for a little 20 and in excellent condition.

Frank, when I'm next at that gunshop, I'll check the water table to see if 'SP' is stamped on the table. I don't win much with $1 scratch tickets so I don't bother with the mega lottery!

Can you imagine one of the utility grade guns of today, such as the CZ, Huglu, and others holding up for a hundred years like the Foxes, Parkers
,LC Smith, Lefever, and Ithacas. My friend got a new CZ sxs 20 for his son and it already has had 2 issues that necessitated it being returned for service.
The young man is a sxs fan, so I gave him the choice between borrowing one of my SW 20's or my Lefever Durston Special 20 w/ ejectors to use on his hunting trip. He chose the SW and he did it proud.
I think I would pick up that SW if I were you.

An SP-/SPE-Grade would be marked like this on the watertable --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...able193702.jpg

The Savage Proof Mark is an SP in an oval --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...8A-Grade02.jpg

Dave Noreen: The frame and foreend latching mechanisims on myy Ithaca Flues 20 ga double (1924) ser# 37944 look to be blued. Now, this gun belonged to an uncle of kine who gave it to me in the late 60's early 70's when he decided to stop hunting and I had returned from Viet Nam and needed a shotgun. It's been in my famly for most of these years except for a period of time when it was in the posession of a close friend (who did nothing with it at all). While it's possible that my dad may have cold blued it, I really doub it as he would have said something to me. I can find no trace of any case colors on this double, none on the watertable, fore end latching assemblies, top lever and tang etc. Is it possible that this gun could have come from the factory with a blued receiver and no case colors? It's a mystery to me.

You have some real interesting history of this Flues Allen. I believe at one time, your uncle my have blued the frame. When I handled the gun when I saw you last to get the decoys, the bluing is pretty much all there with very minor wear if I recall correctly. The only blued frames I ever seen on a Ithaca is a Model 37, never on a SxS Crass, Minier, Flues, or NID. Never say never is commonly said with these old doubles and your gun may be different but these were all case colored.

I'm sure there will be other responses to help solve your mystery.

Hi Frank, It's a mystery to me as well. I just received an email reply from Les Hovercamp, former Master Gunsmith for Ithaca who after retiring from Ithaca set up his own shop (Diamond Gunsmithing). Les says that anything is possible but he's never seen one blued out of the factory. My uncle was (I'm being polite here) very frugal so I doubt he would have paid any $$ to have it blued. Maybe he bought it from someone else who did though. That part of the history was long before I came along. In as much as my Dad was a ex-machinist at the Charlestown Navy Yard during WWII and tinkerer, if he blued it, he would have said something to me as it was my gun. And I know my brother would not have touched it (I would have shot him if he did!) Anyhow, as you saw, it's in very good condition and I'll probably put it up on this forum for sale as I think I'll get that Fox SW 20 ga. The Fox 20 SW will make a nice starter gun for my grandson when he's old enough to go for a 'walk' in the woods with Papa. Have you guys used any of those decoys of mine you picked up?