The restoration question
 

I have read many threads on the virtues of restoration and have some thoughts as a relatively new Parker gun collector. Over the years, it seem I've collected every at one time or another, ie furniture, cars, etc. (I'm not a high end person so I collected what I could afford). Problem was I ended up with furniture I wouldn't sit on and cars I didn't drive because I worried something would happen to them. So I now collect Parkers because I can go shoot them! When I do, it doesn't matter whether they are restored.

When it comes to unrestored items such as cars or furniture, the unrestored "survivors" are with a lot of money because there are so few. Generally, partial restorations do nothing to add to their value with the opposite effect more likely. I think a Parker survivor is best left alone regardless of who may have owned it in the past. But what is a "survivor"? Most Parkers are unrestored so they are not as rare in this condition compared to other collectibles.

If a Parker has no color, worn checkering, 50% barrels, etc., why not restore it-if that's what hits your hot bottom? Not everything that exists is a survivor. A collectible "survivor" might be defined as a Parker that has a certain level of originality and condition. I make no attempt to define what that might be. But anything below that, may warrant restoration to bring back it's former glory provided the restoration brings it back to it's original factory condition.

It seems to me that, while recognizing it can only be "new" once, a worn out Parker remains a worn out Parker, and restoring it isn't so bad (in most circumstances) so long as you can still go shoot it! I'm trying to shoot mine now but the duck hunting is so slow down here I took my iPad to the blind to give me something to do and now you fellas are stuck with this thread!

What a thing to do while sitting in the blind.

A lot of good points that you raise. Anyone would agree that a gun in 50% condition would be considered a shooter. But if the barrel bluing is worn enough to where you fear it getting rusted if you use it, then maybe it is time to re blue it as a means of maintenance and not so much the sake of restoration. Same thing goes with adding oil finish to a worn stock. Such things are done not so much for looks, but as a way to care for the gun.

i agree with you fellas completely... charlie

Different thoughts on this one for sure. Many folks (not all) believe that high original condition guns should be taken out of the safe on a occasion and then rubbed down with a very light coat of oil and put back in the safe. While in the safe they can say hello in the dark to their other collectible friends who leaning against safe wall as well.

I few others take those same guns out and do what I call a controlled hunt. Shooting range, Shooting preserve, dove hunt etc. Something where you know unless you do something really dumb your collector grade gun isn't going to have much of a chance of getting damaged.

Another group just wants a nice semi-original gun that you hunt with. Gun has had some work done to it to make it right. Stock might have been bent, checkering re-cut, pad added, but its still has it original case color and barrel blueing is original. You baby the gun, but if it gets a scratch or two you shake your head from side to side and move on. I'd personally fall into that group.

Last group is the "in for an inch, in for a mile" group. It starts out with just a desire to make the gun sound and make it truly "your gun". Then you start thinking a bit further. You realize the stock is too short unless you add a spacer and I mean a big spacer. Then you realize even when add the spacer and a BIG recoil pad it still too short or it has too much Drop a Heel (because you added to the Length of Pull which increased the DAH).

You then decide you really need to restock it to make it really fit you. Then you think if you restock it, the stock will look shiny and new and the rest of the gun won't. So you decide those little quite minor dings and dents need to come out of the barrel and it needs a first rate re-blacking.

Then while your are mulling over those things and have your calculator already smoking you think why not go ahead and have someone like Turnbull redo the case coloring for you as well.

Well, then you gotta have the engraving chased. Calculator is really smoking now. You need to run outside in the bright light just to make sure you have enough solar energy to power it through all those numbers.

After start writing down numbers you realize you are looking at the following totals:

Original shooter grade GH 12 gauge $1,300

Stock Blank $500

Restocking and checkering $2,500

Polish and re-blacking barrels $400

Engraving rechased $500

Color Case hardening/polishing $600

Total $5,800


Chances of selling the above and recovering your costs down the road? Guessing not much unless everyone who is touching the gun is well known and all work is carefully documented.

My opinion on why most folks don't do the above is simply economics. You can take that same amount of money into the mix and buy a very high all original condition 12 Gauge GH and throw it in the gun safe. He can then hang out with his high grade friends and come out from time to time for a breath of fresh air before he goes back into the dark. :)

Above is certainly all tongue and cheek. I've got one pretty nice CH 16 gauge that's original. Since I've owned it, its been out of the safe twice. Both were preserve hunts and needless to say I was careful. I'll probably sell it some day when I realize its kinda bored setting in the gun safe with a couple of higher grade Foxes. BTW, those Foxes and Parkers don't talk much to each other. Thank goodness I separate them from time to time so it doesn't get nasty.

I've a 12ga VH with fairly good bluing and colours but the stock was obviously home-made and poorly at that. I sent it off to Chris Dawe who reported it as original with sanded off checkering etc. He checkered new stock, finished it beautifully and returned a "restored" Parker because that's what it is---"Give back, make restitution", the authoritative Oxford English Dictionary. It was right by the gun and its makers. I've a Parker 16 hammer 0 grade on the other hand that I would not touch, close to original but tiny chip at toe of buttplate. It would be a shame to apply cosmetics. I'm a gunner when it comes to guns, not collector. My collector side is another thing entirely.

Brian
I consider those items as maintenance. I treasure a used but not abused Parker and feel a 30-50% , all original , shooter is a real treasure. I recently looked at a Runge VHE 410 28" AIS and felt it was a shame someone took a rare gun, VHE 28" 410, and cut its value in half to make an "as new" pretty thing. The old ones are great and should be left alone. JMHO
David

I FOR ONE, AM TIRED OF READING A RESTORED GUN IS ONLY WORTH HALF AS MUCH AS AN ORIGINAL. THIS CERTAINLY IS NOT THE CASE WITH COLLECTOR CARS. WHY? WE PROBABLY WOULD ALL LIKE A 29 PACKARD OR A 57 T-BIRD IN MINT ORIGINAL CONDITION BUT THERE SURE ARE NOT MANY OUT THERE. THEY NEED TO BE RESTORED. SAME IS TRUE WITH OLD GUNS. HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU HEARD, THAT MUST HAVE BEEN SO NICE WHEN IT WAS NEW. RESTORED GUNS SHOULD BRING THE PRICE THEY DESERVE.:cheers:

This really is an argument that will never go anywhere...

But, as a point of interest, in the collector car world there is a shift away from restored cars in preference of originals, even if they show wear.

The main reason not to restore a Parker is the philosophy that once a set of hands in 2012 recuts the checkering and engraving, and refinishes the gun, the gun is no longer as 'Parker' as a Parker that had its checkering cut by a Parker employee back in the day. If we're sitting in a duck blind and my Parker was put together by a Parker employee in 1912 and yours was put together by Larry Smelznick of Good 'Ol Boy Guns in 2011, my Parker has a lot more credence.

There is an old saying "If everyone wanted the same things as me they would all want my wife". The reality is a restored gun is not worth anything close to an original. One of the reasons is rarity as more guns get restored. I also just inspected an AHE 20 ga for a friend--untouched would have been worth $20,000 more that with the new $6,000 stock and redone rib and barrels.
They are worth what they are worth, right or wrong
David

But none of us knows what the gun was when the work was started.

Let's say you go to a gun store and on the rack is a really used and somewhat abused relatively rare Parker. You soon learn from the research books that they made only 14 of these guns. It's not even close to being original, that was lost years ago by someone who tried unsuccessfully to restock it or they had a "gunsmith" buff and blued the frame. Or they cut he bottom of the stock off and fitted some replacement wood on to it. Or they changed it from a pistol grip to a straight grip because they wanted it to handle they way they liked a gun to feel; heck Parkers were a dime a dozen in those days and who ever thought of collecting them... that's ridiculous, they were made to be shot. The mechanics of the gun really needs attention because it's a little off face or an ejector won't work or the for end doesn't fit correctly. It's far too late for this gun to be anything but a butt ugly shooter or a restored red headed step child of the Parker collecting community. What do you do? Leave that potentially great gun in the state you found it or do you bring it back from the grave and make it functional and presentable? Knowing full well that when you get it back from the highly respected restorationist that others are going to wonder why you took such a rare and beautiful old classic and re did it, not knowing what kid of horrible shape it was in when you found it. What kind of crime did you commit?

Take advice from someone who has "restored" things in the past: I have restored 6 cars to concours condition, one of which scored the highest ever for the type of car. While the restorations no doubt made the cars worth more money, I never made money. Always cost more than you could get for it. You generally don't restore something because you'll make money. You do it because you like projects, want to perserve history, like the satisfaction, want to drive yourself crazy, etc. and of course, have money burning a hole in your pocket.

Greg, being a part of the collector car world, I know there is a lot of interest in "survivors" but how they defined survivor is really a term of art. A "survivor" to them is what we would call a high condition gun, ie all original with 70%+ condition. Like Parkers, those cars are very rare. In the car hobby, a survivor is not an old worn out car found in a barn. That is a restoration project that no one thinks twice about.

Brian, I agree with you about maintenance which guns need. My point that one who wants to partially "restore" a gun adds little to it.

The gun world is unlike the car world, and thus may not be a good comparision but it was all I could think of. Some say never restore, but I see no warm restroing some guns. I wouldn't personally bother if the gun didn't have its original stock and barrels as at that point there is nothing to "restore".

It's a personal decision only the individual can answer. The gun in these pictures is an 1894 Remington CEO grade that was my Grandfather's, purchased for him, I believe, as a 50th birthday gift in 1902. When my dad gave it to me it was very, very rough and he told me he wished it could be "fixed up" some time. I had Doug Turnbull do a complete restoration and do not regret it at all. Some would call it an unwise investment, or say my family's dings and other abuses added character, etc., but I know my dad would be pleased. He is no longer with us and unfortunately did not get to see it completed. It was and is a family gun and I carried out my family's wishes. When I use it, I do so with pride. -plc-

David

I think it was a great investment which will now last for many more generations. What a great gun. Thanks for sharing it.

Ray

Its an oft repeated rule of thumb, as reflected in the pages of the Blue Book, that even a properly restored vintage double is discounted about 50% as compared to an original. But I think this statement has been misinterpreted by many. The reference to the reduction in value, it seems to me, is to a comparable 100% original Parker. Some seem to think that a 10% Parker with smooth checkering, brown oxidized barrels, and a silver frame is worth more than it would be if fully restored. I do not think that to be the case in the reality of the market, nor is that the message that the Blue Book (and others) intends to convey. The value comparison is apples to apples, that being an original retaining 100% of its surface finishes as opposed to a restoration showing 100%. I have yet to see an example of an original in 10% condition being worth twice as much as the same gun in 100% restored condition if done properly by someone like Turnbull or Bacheldor. That being said, it also seems to be true that one can seldom recover the cost of the restoration on resale if you've paid someone else to do the work. I'm not saying that it isn't possible in every case, but I've yet to see it happen myself, especially where lower grade guns are concerned. So the lesson there, on lower grade guns, would be to restore a Parker in low condition with little collector value as is, and don't do it for the expectation of profit on a resale, as you will likely be disappointed.

Gentlemen, This thread is close to my heart. There are purist among us, as should be, As for me I feel that gun collecting consist of several types of individuals, Shooters, who by a gun to use, regardless of grade, and as previously mentioned, a touch up here and there to keep the gun functioning correctly. after all they were made to be used! Second we have an individual that wants a gun as original as possible, and buys such a piece based on that originality, and will not buy a gun that has been shall we say messed with. Third we have people that want their favorite gun to look good and function as it should with out straying from it's original specifications, hence the occasional rechecking, barrel blue etc. Fourth a person who focuses on certain grades, gauges, for a collection, and if and when found, they are in need of attention, appropriate measures are taken to bring them back to originality. I am sure we could get into even more subgroups but pretty much I think we all fall into one of these four groups. As for me personally, when I find a one of a kind, or something very unusual and the gun is as it left the factory" sometimes this is hard to verify" I will have the gun brought back to as close to original as can be! Case in point,my 20 gauge lifter! The first 20gauge and to date the only A grade 20 ga hammer gun made, The gun as seen in the Parker Pages summer 2010 pg 29-30 , was sent to Bachelder to freshen up, He did a great job as usual and I am extremely proud to be it's owner, I guess others like it too,since it won the "Peoples Choice Award" at the annual meeting this fall. Whichever category of collecting, shooting we fall into. We are proud owners of I think the best side by side made in this country! Gary

Larry
I agree completely!! I have some age on me and like things, Parkers, RR watches, cars, etc that have stood the test of time and even though show the age and wear and tear still function. Some of the Parkers really need restoration to restore functionality and their former beauty. May we chose wisely.
Merry Christmas
David

Gary

Post some photos!!!!!!!!

Ray

Ray, Click on hammer guns go to page 7. 3 post with photo's Gary

I prefer to think It can be 'original' only once, restored as many times as you want.
Seriously? An iPad in the blind? What's next ?

Good thoughts, all. I can't disagree with any of the posters because it all depends on what our individual feelings are. Larry the Gun Guy brings up a great point with how was the gun to begin with. If it is a clunker but there are many parts around to restore it to an attractive shooter is that not better than leaving it as a clunker. We all have different preferences so luckily there are probably enough Parkers and other fine guns out there for all of us. Some would be ecstatic over a great G or V grade in 80% condition while others who can afford it only gravitate toward the A or B grades. Some can only afford a Trojan grade. More power to us all in whatever makes us happy.

Edgar

I'm moving into the 20th century (not the 21st yet) so I bought my ipad instead of a book. If I were really cool, I'd have an iphone but my flip phone still works.

Pls send ducks this way so I don't have to occupy my time. I've quit now. Hunted all morning and have one mottled duck and one shoveler. Enough for lunch.

Ray

Restoration is truly a slippery slope at times. You do one thing and then it turns to doing something else because it looks out of place. Depending on the gun of course. And as with cars, a fully restored item rarely gets its money back out of it unless the labor was free, as in you do it yourself.

Has the PGCA ever considered establishing an industry standard for evaluating Parkers? I think it would be a great benefit. Collector cars have these standards. Some as simple as a scale of 1 to 5. Others are model specific and the guidelines go into great detail. When I was a national NCRS and Bloomington Gold judge, we got down to looking at nuts and washers in evaluating originality and condition.

The Blue Book and NRA do this generally, but too generally in my view to have any real value. The guidelines of many of the model specific car organizations have now become the national standards for those cars. The only thing anyone pays attention to.

For example, these standards could break a Parker down to stocks, frame and barrels and provide guidelines on how to evaluate originality and condition. Not only would this aid in determining condition and value, but when a Parker is a survivor and when it is a candidate for restoration.

Of course, you'll never have guidelines everyone would agree upon. But many of us now don't agree with the say the Blue Book or other sources of such info. However, the PGCA collectively knows more about Parkers than any other organization and could through consensus provide the best available guidelines for determining such things.

I think this an easy and personal decision once a gun comes into my possession.

A unique good to high original condition gun is an "investment" if bought right in the short term. It's bought wrong it's a long term investment. I will shoot it, lots at the range, sparingly in the field.

A "shooter", solid, original to mostly original, might have a pad added, or barrels reblacked, might need checkering freshened up. Try to buy them right, hope to break even + or -.

"Junker" near basket case but gun appeals to me for some reason, willing to go upside down, could be just a great fitting gun or unique in some way and I deem it worth salvaging. Have done this with a couple of guns that come to mind. I took an NH 10ga and fixed it up incrementally, fun project, very satisfying. I use this gun a lot in the field, over 1800 shells fired at crows since Fall 2010. Shot a lot of ducks and geese too and some trap targets. Might have $500 to $600 too much into it. Enjoyment of hunting and shooting it well worth it. Same goes with 32" 3 frame 12ga VH. Total basket case that I had DelGrego redo in 2008.

So bottom line the return on investment with a restoration is in enjoyment of ownership and use not investment return,

There is a tuition charged for enjoying Parker's, we all pay it and perhaps later that education returns some dividends. In the meantime I have fun with them.

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4750

I think that the percentage condition rating is a good one, but the amount can often be up for debate and subject to individual variation. Of course it is not Parker specific, but can be applied to any collector gun.

In addition to my addiction to Parkers, I also have a bad case of wood boat-itis. Believe me you don't ever want to even think about going there if you want "original." Wood rots, It can be wet rot or dry rot but as something once alive it rots. Sometimes it has to be replaced if the boat is to remain a boat. Boats have to be maintained. There is no 1927 varnish or paint out there so today's products have to do. A friend of mine's 1927 'triple' cockpit 28 foot Chris Craft runabout has exactly 7 pieces of original wood in it. It plies the lake most every day of the season. I believe there is exactly 1 (yes 1) pre-WW2 Chris Craft out there w/ its original varnish. Still they command astronomical prices- many owners having (on this lake) having turned down offers well over a 1/4 million for some of them. Get the point. There are boats out there that haven't seen water in several years. You can read a newspaper thru the shrunk up seems in their mahogany planks. To keep it alive you gotta use it. It seems we are much luckier in the gun world but I dare say most of us have more fun with our guns in the field than in the safe. Same thing for boats. Floaters are more fun than trailer queens.

restoration
 

Merry X-Mas to all,

I have a DH #2 frame ?with 16 Ga Dam barrels and 12 Ga Titanic 2 forearms all numbers match. I had Brad Bachelder do a complete restoration on everything.
I did not do this for resale, I did it because I love my Parker.

The dents,scratches, and dings will now be my memories to pass down to my family. The gun was made in 1904, reborn in 2012, hopefully she will give another 108 years witout fail.

If you appreciate the beauty of your Parkers restore or not the choice can only be yours.

The Statue of Liberty has undergone multiple restorations - value? Priceless. Mount Rushmore has had some facelift work - value? Priceless. My gandfather's 16 ga VH was a basket case and underwent complete rebuild by DelGrego - value as a family heirloom to be passed down to the next Newell generation (it's in the works) - Not for sale and Priceless.

I do like the suggestions above for grading though.