Parkers in the Remington Museum
 

On my way home from the Meriden gathering this past weekend, I made the point to stop in Ilion to see the Remington Museum. I did not get there in time for a factory tour... some other time maybe. They have quite a bit of Parkers there on display. 11 Parkers in total. Among them a Try Gun, the Trojan Skeet Gun, an huge 8ga. GH straight grip, an A-1 Custom (I am sure built by Remington) and a SC trap gun. However, the most interesting gun on display was another Trojan, that was on the wall directly below the Trojan Skeet Gun.

I have done some searching on the forum, as well as reached out to a few of the Parker Pages editors and it does not appear that this gun has been previously discussed.

What I believe this gun to be is an actual finished prototype version of James P. Hayes cost reduced cocking mechanism!

The Parker Story talks about this improvement that Hayes designed and tried to implement on pages 132 - 134. Figure 4.16 shows a drawing of the mechinism that is notorized April 1, 1911. His design reduced 18 parts in the Parker cocking mechanism down to 4pcs. It had the gun as being cocked by an extension on the forend iron (similar to Fox guns), which pushed on a pair of rods to cock the hammers. Since thebell crank was elimated, the dolls head on the trigger plate was not required and the screws that cover the crank pin are eliminated. But, since the bellcrank acted as a barrel stop, Hayes had to resurect the check hook from the hammer gun design.

Figure 4.17 in TPS shows a photo of what is stated to be the known prototype of this new design. This prototype is a very rough graded frame and is not finished.

Pictured below is the Trojan that I mention above that hangs in the Remington Museum. It displays ALL of the features of Hayes modified design, but this gun is fully finished! You will observe no dolls head on the trigger plate, no front screw on the side of the frame. And what appears to be a check hook pin at the base of the water table. Also, the forend iron has the Fox type extension clearly visable. Another interesting feature is the forend latch. It is of a different design than normal and it is also important to note that the Trojan Skeet Gun above it has a similar exposed latch on it, but it is different.
The gun also has blued metal parts instead of CCH.

Now... I do not know the Serial number of the gun. But I am in the process of finding this out thorugh the Remington Society. One would think that maybe this was a very early Trojan which was made with Hayes design as a fiished gun. This would be assumed since the Trojan was introduced only a year after Hayes new design was created. But... Look at the safety and top lever! It has the later style button which was not used until nearly 1920. So was this gun an farther attempt to explore hayes design? Maybe, but it is my suspision that this was a later attempt by Remington to revive Hayes' design. I come to this loose conclusion based on the fact that it uses the same unusual forend latch that the Trojan Skeet gun has, which was a Remington designed model.

TPS states that there was 4 different experimental Trojan guns in the stock books and it was before the 1938 move, but under Remington management. They are 236738, 236972, 237018 and 237447. The last, S/N 237447, is the Skeet model on display above this Trojan that I write about. Is it possible that this Trojan is one of the other 3 numbers? I hope to find out.

Another important observation is that this Trojan has the "Parker Bros" engraving on the side, but the Skeet gun does not.

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Well, if nothing else, it has an interesting forend latch.

Is that a Remington Model 32 forend latch?

No, it is not a 32 latch. It looks like it may be a roller like on a Model 21. However, a Trojan doesn't need a latch and neither does the 21. I own a prototype 21 with no latch and it works just fine. The "latch" is just a sign of a higher grade gun in the trade. A latch on a Trojan may be to secure a beavertail forend which is more likely to come off under recoil than a splinter.

Any forend I have removed from a Trojan has been pretty stubborn in allowing itself to be separated from the barrels. It would be hard to imagine a beavertail forend on a Trojan might be likely to come off under recoil... but that is likely the reason a latch would have been incorporated on a Trojan nonetheless.

you got a sharp eye for details brian...bout all i no is if they shoot or not...thanks for the notes on the guns...someday i hope to see the musem my self and the town the parkers were made in... charlie

I am in the process of finding the contact at Remington that is responsible for this gun to see if I can get the S/N and maybe a chance to see it up close. I believe this gun to be truely significant and I am excited to be able to document it formally.

It took a bit of leaning over the lower glass cases and careful angling of my camera to get the photos that I did. Good thing that there was no one around. They would have thought I was nuts. lol.

The latch reminds me of one on a special order Fox with a BTFE . Sadly, I no longer have the gun.

The Parker Bros. Trojan Grade gun wasn't introduced to the trade until 1912. Could this gun be an early experiment in producing a lower priced Parker Bros. gun? That roller forearm larch looks like the latch used on Tobin ejector guns.

The actual forearm latch used on the Trojan Grade as introduced is a version of the J.C. Kremer & A.H. Fox Patent No. 1,029,374 latch used on some early Ansley H. Fox graded smallbores and some of the early Sterlingworths. A.H. Fox Gun Co. finally settled on using their F.T. Russell Patent No. 1,029,229 latch on all their snap-off/on forearms. The year the PGCA met at the gun show in Richmond, Babe Delgrego showed me some letters he had between Parker Bros. and A.H. Fox Gun Co. about their use of the Kremer & Fox latch.

Years ago, there was a "1 of 1000" 3200 on display in the museum with serial #1 or 2. One of the Remington directors at the time had bought one of the 1 of 1,000's which had the same serial number. When he saw the identical gun in the museum, he asked (Demanded?) that the museum gun be destroyed. It was, I believe

Dave,

I do not think it is a pre 1912 gun. That is because of the use of the low profile safety and short top lever. Which was not started to be used until later than that.
James P. Hayes cost cutting design was thought up in 1911.
What I think this to be is an attempt by Remington to revive Hayes' design later on in order to cut costs for them.

Until I get the S/N on the gun, we cannot be sure of when it was made. That will be key.

John D., in 1998, the 3200 One of 1000 pair, trap and skeet, serial #1 was in the original green plastic case, stored away in the archives. I don't know whether you are referring to before or after 1998. The serial numbers are not identical as I recall. The trap gun has a "T" in the serial number and the skeet gun has an "S". I may be wrong about that. I do not own one so can't take a look.

This would have been in the late 70's or early 80's. I don't remember if it was the #1 or #2 set. I have the #3 set which my Dad bought as a Remington Director

As I said, the #1 set was in the Archives in 1998. It may still be.

Thanks, Brian. Good story and photos. JF

That latch looks a lot like the roller latch on my LC Smith . If you have John Houchins ' book on pages 236 and 407. Only the roller seems to be reverced

That safety "button" is the post-1917 design. Even well after 1917 the Trojans were still being manufactured with the pre-1917 button. I have a 1923 Trojan 16 ga. with the pre-1917 safety button yet it also has the rib extension which had been all but phased out on Trojans quite a lot earlier than mine.

The wood in the forend has some figure which would lead me to believe it is a late Remington gun. The wood on the Trojan skeet was very nice. I also suspect it was one of the expermential guns listed in TPS.

Mark

Brian, I just looked at my pictures of the Trojan Skeet we inspected in 1998. It is a real Skeet with single trigger, straight grip, fancy wood, and beavertail. Did you photograph the skeet gun as well as the Trojan in your post?

Yes. I did take some photos of the Trojan Skeet gun when I inspected the Trojan Prototype at Remington.
I handled and broke down the skeet gun.
I will pull out the few photos I took and post them shortly.

I appears to have a pin where you would expect one to be for a check-hook. Anyone ever open this gun to see how it is taken down?

The Research Committee didn't inspect the gun Brian pictured, and he said it was in a locked display case when he was there.

Carl,

The gun you refer to with the check hook is the James Hayes 2nd Prototype Trojan. Serial Number 226709. It features the Hayes Revised cocking mechanism, experimental ejectors and a experimental forend latching system. This is the gun that I inspected and documented when I went to Remington. It is the subject of my Summer 2013 Double Gun Journal Article. And I will be putting together a more condensed version of that article for an upcoming issue of PP when i get the chance.

Actually, the gun was not locked up when I was there. it hangs right on the wall below the Trojan Skeet.

here are a few photos of that gun.

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Bill, it would be nice for you to post pictures of the skeet gun that we handled. Do you have the serial of that gun?

The Serial number of the Skeet gun at Remington is 237447
It is a 2 frame gun.

I have posted photos in this thread.

http://www.parkerguns.org/forums/sho...889#post132889

Now, if we can get Chuck do do a quick check in the stock book. I remember several guns that had EXP and I think this is one of the guns. Thanks Brian.

The gun that Brian pictures in the other thread is the skeet Trojan at the Remington museum. I can't imagine why Parker Brothers made hammerless guns with the complicated barrel stop when they could have used the pin that was used in the three lug hammer guns. Brian, what do you think?

The cocking mechanism that Hayes developed was very simple and could have saved Parker a lot of money. I go into the cost savings on specific operations in more detail in my DGJ article. These calculations come directly from Hayes' original notes. But my guess is that when Hayes originally proposed this mechanism in 1910, management didn't want a completely different hammerless gun to have to make and still service the old one. But there is no documentation supporting one theory vs. another.
And, when the second, fully finished, prototype was made in 1928, the depression hit a year later and. Parker was Sold to Remington only a few years after that. I suspect that we may have seen Hayes' design revision implemented if all that wouldn't have happened.

Especially the coil spring ejector mechanism. This gun was not the only one made with that type of mechanism, another was owned by Charlie Parker. DelGrego threw that one out unfourtunately.
Although Hayes co-designed the original flat spring ejector mechanism is 1901, we know he was a constant tinkerer and looking for improvement. No doubt that 25 or more years later, he wanted to improve on it.

Any idea why the three lug design was scrapped for the complicated check hook?

Well, the Charles King designed Hammerless guns uses the Bellcrank mechanism to cock the guns. With all that there, there is no room for a check hook and pin as used on the hammer guns.
The hammerless design used the milled cut in the frame for the cocking crank as the positive stop for the barrels.

I still cannot figure fully why Hayes used a separate piece in the barrel lug for the check hook on his second prototyle instead of an intigrated hook like the hammer guns. I would suspect as to make the hook replacable in the event of breakage. But I do not know of check hook breakage being a common issue on hammer guns.

I think because it was a 'prototype' made from available parts that could be modified easily and cheaply until (and if) the design was adopted.

Hayes very crude 1910 prototype (pictured in TPS), used a check hook lug removed from a hammer gun. It was soldered onto the lug of the DH that was used to make the Prototype. I was able to personally inspect this gun as well when I was doing all my research.

An A&D type of cocking mechanism coupled with the three lug barrel stop would have made the Parker easier and cheaper to manufacture and less prone to malfunction. Oh, well.

Here ya go Bill. I will leave it up to you to label these great pictures.

Wow! What I wouldn't give to have been a part of that team!!

What's with the fist fulls of frames and straight grip guards?

Brian, those are parts from the original Remington program to ressurect the Parker gun in the 1980s. When I was there inthe early 90s the had crates of parts. I wonder if they still have them.

I am sure they have the parts. Just likely not any of the same people that were there at that time.
I know it took me a while to find out who I had to talk to about going in there to inspect Trojan 226709.

I will try to label the pictures, left to right, from the top.

1. Frank Sweeney rooting through the box of Kolar made parts for the planned Parker reintroduction.

2. Swanson and McCormack in the Archives.

3. Mark Conrad and Kevin McCormack

4. Conrad and Murphy examining the Trojan Skeet

5. Murphy with the prototype Remington Model 1100 Trench Gun

6. Swanson, Dennis Sanita, our host, Murphy, and Ron Kirby, our leader, with the Trojan Skeet

7. The sign in the parking lot of the Arms welcoming the PGCA Research Team

8. Al Swanson at the copier

9. Stock books in the rack

10. Same as #6

11. Order books in the rack

12. Jim Hall, Conrad, Swanson, Sweeney

13. A 1972 shot by my Dad in DelGrego's original shop

14. 1972, Babe DelGrego striking barrels, shot by my Dad

15. Larry DelGrego Sr. holding my GHE Damascus 16 gauge, 1972

16. Dr. Dave Rozier, Swanson, Murphy

17. Murphy and the Trojan Skeet

18. Murphy with the Kolar parts

19. Murphy rooting in the Kolar box

20. Murphy with the makings of his four gun set of Parkers.

I hope you enjoy these pictures as much as we enjoyed our week in the Arms.

And now I wonder what is going to happen to the Museum now that Remington is moving out of the State of NY... Is all of this just going to go into storage never to be seen again... Sure got to to thank the Gov. of NY for pushing Remington out of the state.:cuss: