Hemingway's Guns- great read indeed
 

I hope no body objects to me "re-starting" a previous fine thread about Ernest Hemingway. I agree with the member who posted the comment about the astute readership here, a wealth of information. I can't comment on the combat and PTSD postings, I served 6 years in the USN Reserves, as a machinist's mate, and was discharged as an E-4. I do not know if PTSD and the inherent suicidal traits in the Hemingway family are related or not.

I did read the chapter about the Browning Superposed with interest, as my hunting partner has a similar one, with the two triggers, but his is a 20 gauge. But as a waterfowler who leaves the 3 shot plug in his Model 12 year-around, I do wonder about this, found on page 27. "In 1913, after public outcry in the US about declining wildlife numbers----- the Federal government passed the Weeks-McLean Act-- aka-- the Federal Migratory Bird law. Among many other things, this limited shotguns to holding and firing no more than 3 cartridges.--"

I am under the impression that this Law resulted in the ban against the 8 gauge, and possibly also the punt guns used by the market hunters that James Michener wrote about in his novel "Chesapeake"! Wasn't it 1935 when FDR signed into law the three-shot limited on repeating shotguns when used for water fowling?--any comments or clarifications would be welcome!

I have a copy of the Hemingway gun book right in front of me, and I found the passage you refer to. I wonder if the prohibition of the 8 gauge is one of the "other things" alluded to in the work that you quoted above.

I can tell you that the gandarms (Trying to spell French words is like saying pig latin backwards.) take that three shot law seriously. I've been stopped several times by those guys and after showing my license they always ask to see the plug....or to show evidence there is one in there. The three shot and anti-punt gun laws seem to go hand in hand, so they probably became law at the same time.

A 20 gauge Superposed is a rare gun. I thought the 8 gauge prohibition was a 1918 thing. I don't know much about all that.

Are we shooting 8-gauge guns?
 

From pages 163-164 of "The Best of Nash Buckingham": In the early 1890's --trombone-action repeaters--- carrying 6 shells apiece-- quickly infiltrated the ranks of sportsmen and market hunters.--- By1912-1913, when the Weeks-McLean Bill and Lucy Act appeared, it had become obvious that wildfowl populations------ were doomed unless remedial measures were taken. Federal bag limits of 25 ducks per day and 8 geese-- with 90 day open seasons---- were clapped on. To make assurance doubly sure, from the market-shooting slant, the good old 8 bore was banished. The lighter, faster-shooting pump guns and auto-loaders---- were not only allowed to continue, but made the watchword for advertising: 'Shoot more, shoot faster and kill more'. Putting away the 8 bore probably seemed the right thing to do to disenfranchise the market gunners."

The late Nash B. wrote this for Gun Digest in 1960. If he were still with us today, I wonder what he would think of: Steel shot, choke tubes, over-bored 12 gauges with 3.5" chambers, black synthetic stocks and camo-sprayed barrels, battery powered decoys and electronic callers.

In my experience, shooting a std. 12 gauge Model 12, plugged, the third shot is mainly for finishing a cripple, once you have fired the first shot, the incoming birds flare at the sound. I would have very much liked to have seen Captain Harold Money shoot his Model 1897 on decoying ducks, as described in Nash's best known story--

From what I recall, the 1918 law only banned guns larger than 10 gauge, the selling of migratory game, and gunning at night.

It was the 1935 laws that banned more than three shots, baiting, and live decoys.

That's memory, I didn't look it up, so I could be wrong.


DLH

I once skulled into a raft of divers including a couple Canvasbacks. My partner and I each shot the three rounds from the autoloaders and reloaded and emptied again. We could have probably done this a third time but we had a lot of dead ducks on the water. I have a nice Bull Can mounted on my wall from this skull.

I have also been picking up decoys and had geese want to land next to me.

Sometimes birds do have bird brains.

Mark

Mark,

I've seen ducks land in the decoys as we were throwing them out during broad daylight. Sometimes they just want to decoy and nothing will stop them.

One of the wildest ones I ever saw was Kaas and I out with Nathan on Lake St. Clair. Kaas is normally a murderous shot, but everybody has a bad day and he was having a tough one. A single black duck (Yes a black!) was decoying in and he took two shots at it missing with both barrels. Bird never missed a wing beat, just kept on coming like nothing had happened. I could barely fire from pure amazement but did manage to take the shot and kill the bird. I had in my mind it was going to be a half grown young of the year duck when we picked it up. I was wrong, a big old black duck drake. Guess he'd just had enough of living.......


Destry

Hemmingway's Shotguns
 

I was just in NY City at the Beretta store and was amazed to find one of Hemingway's O/U Beretta displayed in the store. I was very pleased apparently he must have owned it while living in Key West for they said he bird hunted in Cuba with it. A must see if you are in NY City.

I think Jim Austin owned that Beretta years ago and had it for sale at Kittery Point.

When hunting upland game, the covey rise or the flushed pheasant happens quickly and one might get off two aimed shots. The third is usually a "hope shot". Do we "finish off" a bird with that third round? I usually grab it and ring its neck, or a dog might grab it and then you ring its neck anyway.

Duck shooting can be different. Sometimes several/many come in if you are shooting from a blind with good deeks. You might cuss when you run out of shells. Usually, however; two is fine and reason for celebration.

The only time I would actually need to fill the magazine on my model 12, 97 or Auto 5 is when a mob or crazed people are assaulting my home or business. A belt fed weapon might be better.

Wonderful!

Most of Hem's guns have been lost. The fellow who bought his well used model 12 at Abecrombie (sp?) and Fitch bought it for a song. It was well used and after shooting the gun for a while he sold it and it's lost. Hem's famous Griffin and Howe Model 70 30-06 went to his son Patrick. It was stolen and they think it ended up in the IRA. One of his Mannlicher Schoeneurs when to one of Mary and Hem's friends in Ketchum, it was an 1952 carbine.

I have seen photos of the famous Beretta. Hem's Woodmasters are gone. At least one of his 470 double rifles is on display in Cuba...or is it in Key West?
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/a.../rifles016.jpg
Here is my MS 1952 carbine.

Castro used to shoot one of Hem's O/U's just for grins. I believe that gun is still on display in the Finsa Vigia.

I have no idea what happened to his Superposed....I guess I need to dig into the Hemingway's Guns book some more.

Famous men's guns are exciting. I own a model 08 Colt 380 that was owned by Ray Folger of coffee fame. The interesting thing about the pistol, which is like new, is that Mr. Folger used it to kill an intruder who had entered his back yard. I also own his Parker SBT. Nice, guns with a history. I am a Starbuck's coffee guy tho.

doubles and single shot rifles
 

If your are duck hunting or pheasant hunting you rarely get a third shot and I never have got a second shot at a pheasant. I hunt deer with a tc single shot and know that those guys who shoot three times, missed with them all. If you are not on target don't shoot. Why wound game kill it or don't shoot. For me, It's about hunting not killing.

Rodney,

Sometimes you do need those extra shells. I recall the occasion I shot at a deer five times with an 870 Slug Gun before I got it killed. Hit it on the run with the first shot and knocked it down, then the crazy part started. It's a long story.......


Destry

im one of them fellas that need the 2 nd and 3 rd shot a lot....but aint shot nothing that holds 3 shells for a long time other than ,y old drilling...charlie

Not sure about other field trials, but in the Springer world, trials must be shot with a 12 gauge,"well choked" break gun. No three shots for us! The best trial gun I shot with used either a 32" F&F M21, or a Crown Grade Elsie

I was never there, so certainly don't know for sure, but I've heard and seen pictures that purport to show Andy Devine shooting his .410-bore Parker Bros. at the Nationals at Ames Plantation, Grand Junction, TN.

I know this isn't the Grand Junction, TN picture Dave is referring to... this was Andy Devine with his Parker .410 woodcock shooting in Louisiana with Grits Gresham & co.


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In an earlier post, I incorrectly stated that a 20 gauge Superposed is a rare gun. I should have stated that a double trigger 20 gauge Superposed is a rare gun.

I have never seen (in the flesh) a two trigger Superposed of any gauge. I wonder how difficult it is to have one switched to double triggers? I have always prefered hunting with a gun with two triggers. When shooting a single select, I have never been able to switch to the other barrel after a covey rise. I just accept the barrel I've already selected, which is often the wrong one. It is easy for me to move my finger back (I am always set to fire the open barrel first.) and fire the other tube.

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In recent years I've heard credible rumors that Hemingway's Superposed still resides not far from the Sun Valley area, and it continues to be carried in the field occasionally by an "Old Hunter"...

Best, CSL
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Ya that's funny me too and that the owner is a pretty alright guy........:rolleyes:

I own a 12-bore Std. Lightning with double triggers... and have seen others in my career. No 20-bores, however. As I recall from the Superposed book, the 20-bore may have been introduced after the single trigger was standard. I am not a fan of Val Browning's single trigger.

And... I've learned to fairly well ignore choke. I seem to hit as many targets with a true CYL choke as with a Full. Waterfowling is probably a sensible exception however. All I'm saying is that I'm either "on" the target or "off." It's me, not the choke.

Best, Kensal

That is great! It stands to reason that Hem, or Mary would have given the gun to an old friend....or maybe a bartender.

I have read the date, but can't recall the year that Mary gave the lion's share of Hem's Idaho guns to Abecrombie and Fitch to re-sell. Those who bought them, many showing hard use, were not told the identity of the original owner. If they had, they would probably have saved them for future sale. Most are lost.

I am guessing that the gun that Chris alludes to never went through Abercrombie and Fitch after Hemingway's death. Bird hunters are a close knit group.

I agree. The fellow was probably given the gun and has kept it secret for safties sake. The old Superposed would be valuable and there is no tell'n what someone would do to get their hands on it.

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Below is one of the early (double-trigger) 12ga Browning Supers, delivered in may of 1931... A Browning letter confirmed it's original configuration as a factory ordered Trap Gun, choked full/full, with 32" barrels, vent rib, double (checkered) triggers, and a Monte Carlo stock. It was shipped to a W.H. Price (Gun-Smith) at 98 Stevenson street, San Francisco, Ca. ---... When I spoke with the Browning historian he indicated that demand for the first Superposed guns was very high, and they were somewhat hard to get in early 1931...

Nothing wrong with double triggers, especially when you've been shooting them a long time...

Best, CSL
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I've seen a goodly number of pre-WW-II 12-gauge Superposeds with double (and double single) triggers, but I've never seen a 20-gauge Superposed with anything but a single selective trigger, some inertia and some later ones mechanical.

Triggers- single or double
 

My friend with the older 20 Browning with 28" barrels and solid, not vented rib, bought it used many years ago from a Mom and Pop gun store in Northern WI. He has no idea what the chokes are, or anything like that, he just kills grouse, quail and woodcock with it in an almost machine-like style. Very little blue or wood finish left, front sight bead is missing, just a solid older bird gun. Another friend has a 16 gauge Model 21 Winchester with ejectors, but two triggers instead of the usual single trigger with the gold plated button in the shank. He obtained a letter from the Winchester Museum at Cody, WY and it was a special order made in 1954. You never know, do you??

Thank you for the fine pictures! I'll bet that gun would be a bang up trap gun today! Just this morning I averaged 23 for three rounds, which is good for me! Something that I've been working on for a few months.

I finally learned where my Parker SBT shoots. Now, if I can only learn to consentrate hard, I'll break'm all.

Do you shoot your old Superposed?

On page 121 in Ned Schwing's book "The Browning Superposed" The double trigger 20 ga. Superposed is discussed. the gun was marketed by FN and sold mostly in Europe (not in the US). Guns were marked FN and not Browning.
I have seen a couple and I have shot one that belongs to a friend, his story is, "a relative brought the gun back to the US while in the service".
Yup; I have tried to buy the gun and he has agreed to have his wife sell me the gun if I out live him. (he is younger than I)... Sooooooooo It looks like a dead end for me... :)
David

I wonder how much of an issue it would be to have the standard single Superposed trigger exchanged for two? I just don't like single trigger double barreled shotguns and I've got a few.

BTW: A few mushroom tops from the proper shrume just might do the trick. Hard to do to a friend tho, unless of course it is a very, very nice shotgun.

Grantham, I found this forum because I saw your knowledgeable posts about Hemmingway. I have been doing some research on him as well as Pauline Pfeiffer, who was my great aunt. Virginia Pfeiffer was my grandmother.

Since you seemed to know some fairly random facts about my family I am very interested in learning more from you. For instance, do you know anything about a possible acquaintance/friendship between Ernest, Pauline or Ginny and Alexander Calder, the sculptor? I have been doing research on Calder as well and have come across some possible ties, but nothing concrete. That possible connection gave me some excitement. :-)

I know joining a gun forum is a very strange way to initiate such a conversation, but you peaked my interest with you clearly educated interest in Ernest.

You can continue a conversation with me via email directly, if that is allowed? dragonpriestess32@yahoo.com.

I look forward to possibly learning more about my family through you.

Thanks!

This may be the gun that surfaced at an obscure auction house outside of Elmira NY years ago. Shown in the catalog lot description was also the leg-o-mutton case for the gun with Hemingway's name on it, and a framed black & white photograph of Hemingway seated on a metal folding chair, surrounded by bird boys and his favorite guide, with a pile of doves just after a shoot in Cuba. As the story was related to me, Ugo Beretta sent the USA rep to the auction specifically to buy the gun so it could be returned for exhibition by Beretta. As I recall the gun sold in the low $20-thousands. The photograph may be worth as much or more than the gun.

Hemingway's Beretta O/U is a famous gun. I saw a detailed article on it not too long ago....a few years. I do not know where the gun is now. Hem bought it himself. I believe it had two triggers. Fully engraved. He left an O/U in Cuba and Castro used to go to the home there, borrow it and shoot it. I think he returned it.

He also used a Browning Superposed. (Maybe that was the gun with two triggers?) I bought both an old model 12 and well used Superposed so I could shoot birds like Hemingway used to. Now I need a boat to fish in the Caribbean and a few best sellers.

I was able to see and handle Hemingway's Beretta at the Vintage Cup in Millbrook. I was thrilled. Of course I also have a Mannlicher 6.5 carbine for deer hunting. And an old wooden boat...

I can recommend "With Hemingway-A year in Key West and Cuba" by Arnold Samuelson for a glimpse into the life of Hemingway and Pauline. He was there.

Concerning Hemingway and Calder. In the past year I have read three Hemingway related books. One is the novel of he and Hadley in Paris, another is the bio written by Valery Hemingway, Gregory's widow. She was Ernest's final literary secretary and was with him for, as I recall, his final three years. She married Gigi, Hem's strange, troubled son who became an MD and then turned himself into a female. The other is a newly edited "A Moveable Feast". Mary edited the one most of us read years ago. This new one IMHO is much better.

In one of those books a story is related about Hemingway knowing Calder during the Paris days with Hadley. As the story goes he purchased a painting from Calder and he kept it for the rest of his life. It might be in the Finca Vegia (probably misspelled).

In short, Ernest did know Calder when both were young men in Paris.

This is as close as I have been able to come to owning a Mannlicher Schoenauer like Hem's. He did buy one of these for Mary, I believe. Pauline's were 1903 models. This is a 1952 carbine in 30-06. A good woods gun for elk.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/a.../rifles021.jpg

In his final years Hem said that he should have stayed married to Hadley, who was 9 years his senior. He said she was his most true and loving and dedicated to his welfare, of his wives. Valerie Hemingway, said that Ernie would not allow Martha Gillhorn's name mention in his presence. I guess she broke his heart. She was also a better war correspondent than he was. She became bitter in her later life, because all she was remember for was being one of Ernie's many wives, which urked her.

A bit off the topic but a good friend of mine has a Browning double/single trigger O/U. Use it as a double trigger or pull the same trigger twice to fire the second barrel. I would imagine that if a trigger problem happened it would be a nightmare to repair.

Daryl, It was a nightmare just reading that.....:rotf:

Thank you, Steve! This has been quite helpful. I will look into those books. :-)