Winchester 1897 Black Diamond Trap
 

I think these pump guns have great lines, and I've noticed more of them popping up on the auction sites. They all seem to have short LOPs, like 13 3/4". I've also noticed several variations on the butt: a curved Winchester butt plate, a flat butt for a pad, and another with a steel butt plate. I assume the shooter could order whatever he wanted. Neat guns. When looking at them is there anything to be especially aware of? Thanks

Worn sear springs hammer will fall when closing action also watch the web of your hand I love the 97s

Hunters and shooters used to wear heavy canvas coats, or a thick wool sweater and some kind of shooting vest, thus the short LOP to compensate. I know that I feel the difference when I shoot a longer gun while wearing winter duds and I don't like it. Even a quarter inch in LOP makes a difference to me.

Pumps fell from favor, but now are gaining ground and those old Model 97's that languished in grandpa's closet are worth money today. I have one, but don't shoot it much. I prefer the model 12....or better yet an Ithaca mod 37.

Model 97 Traps are scarce in high condition. Some Traps do not have the matted barrel but are still original. I have not seen a Trap that I considered original that did not have the TRAP GUN stamp on the breech bolt. The curved hard rubber buttplate is hard to find. Some early buttplates have peaks like the Parker dog's head buttplate. The complete package is original butt, TRAP GUN stamp, matted barrel and receiver top, and black diamond stock. 32" barrel is scarce in a Trap. I have not had the opportunity to buy one in years of searching.

Some more detailed pics of my '97 below. Its pull is 14&1/8" which is usable for me (could be another 1/2"). My main problem is the small trigger guard when gloved in cold weather. The butt stock and plate are slightly curved; the BP is hard rubber like a DHBP without the "peak".

them old 97 s are fine guns..most seen a lot of hard use and were hunted hard but most have survived...ive got a good shooter in the 97 its a 12 ga 30 inch full choke and kicks like a mule with high brass shells.... charlie

I know a fellow who owns one. He inherited it. He told me that I could have his first one or two children, but he is keeping that gun. He said it's like new. I haven't seen it tho. A 97 Black Diamond trap gun.

Question: If I take an old Model 12 and mount one of those strap on combs to the stock have I just created a trap gun?

I have shot some really good registered trap scores with a solid rib model 12. So yes, anything is possible. Dave

Pumps were cutting edge shotguns at the turn of the century (the one before last) and were extremely popular for several decades. I still like them. When I was a kid almost everyone shot a pump; a few autos. As a s a college kid someone loaned me a double with a plastic stock! I did fine with it. Have no idea what it was.

I have had trouble shooting a pump at skeet, but I'm not that good. If I could break the first bird quickly I'd have plenty of time to work that trombone.

I like the pencil thin feel of a pump, but I like the old world mystic of the double. I have been shooting trap and skeet and want to shoot my old doubles; a Parker GH, a Fox Sterlingworth, a Spanish ASTRA and an "I" grade Lefever. No one shoots guns like these in my club. No one cares tho. I can shoot whatever I want to shoot.

Here is the question; does anyone shoot one of these old doubles with the low comb at trap/skeet and do any good with them? I suppose I'd have to "cover the bird" but that's okay with me....if it works.

My first parker was a vh 12, 28 inch, imp mod and full. First time shooting skeet I broke a 24. High 8 proved tough with that choke. I walked off station 7 with 2 clouds of smoke on a windless day that left my fellow shooters amazed. What fun. I now shoot a SBT and a vh skeet gun and shoot very well indeed. Dave

Thank you. My model 12, 12 doesn't have a rib, but my Model 12, 16 does. Does the rib make that much difference? The thing is the 12 gauge has cast off and when mounted my eye lines up perfectly along the barrel. I've never shot it at trap, but will.

Parkers are all I shoot at skeet, trap and sporting clays and I do sufficiently well not to cause me to want to shoot a pump, gas job, or OU instead.

I have shot alot of single barrel trap guns , My SBT Parker is amazing. Dave

It sounds to me that you are a better shot than I. I like your spirit. I'm shooting my SBT in trap and will continue to do so. Been shooting a Browning Gold Fusion with the skeet choke screwed in at skeet. It works okay, but I liked my old Rem 1100 better... I no longer own the gun. I've also shot a SKB Ithaca 385 with skeet chokes for skeet. It worked okay, but I just don't like the feel of the gun.

Fact is, I was raised a hunter and while we did shoot trap when the season started, we only did it to sharpen our eye for the feathered fowl.

Shooting clays is an entirely different breed of cat, and while I like it; hunting is best.

While looking at the 97s, you may get lucky and find a 1893. Predecessor to the 1897 and much scarcer. The 1893 was basically too weak in the frame to consistently handle the early smokeless powder shells. Winchester made about 20,000 before the problems became too numerous to ignore. Winchester offered to replace any 1893 with a new 1897, grade for grade. All returned 93s were destroyed making them one of the scarcest Winchester pump shotguns around. The only scarcer one would be the model 61 .22 shot. 93s and early 97s came with plain, uncheckered steelbuttplates which had a small peak.

Didn't Nash Buckingham shoot a '93 that was exchanged for a '97?

Over the years I have seen a few 93s at gun shows and they garnered little interest. I'll bet people don't know the story just related. Some were damascus. I see more Marlins than Winchesters tho.

When young I attended local carnivals where you got ten shots at little zinc bottles for a dime. We shot those little 61's shooting shorts. Does anyone shoot 22 shorts today? We used to all of the time.

I enjoy my 97, but I haven't shot it much. It just looks great.


http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/a...tguns002-1.jpg

that hammer on the old 97 gives are some kinda carisma...i only have a good shooter in the old 97 my grandson barrowed it about 2 years ago and i aint seen it since...he must like it or throwed it in the creek .... charlie

When young lots of our guns had hammers and half cock was considered a reliable and easy to use safety. The 97 could be put on half cock and so could the early Ruger .22 revolvers and my .357 Blackhawk and yes, my ears still ring. The ubiquitous 30/30 Win and Marlin also used the half cock safety and they were about the only high powered rifles that I ever saw in Western Kansas. Some guys still used old Krags. I cannot recall, as I sit here, any rifle sporting glass, or even peep sights, but some must have.

As I peruse photos of bird hunters at the turn of the Century (19 - 20) I see lots of 97's and a few Parkers and Elsies. Other's too, of course, but the 97, in its day, was hot potatos. Hunters must have liked the extra shots and the modernity of the pumps.

I think that our friend, Dave Noreen, would know about Nash Buckingham's exposed hammer Winchesters. As I recall, he got a Winchester from Harold Money, but I don't know whether it was a 97 or a 93. I have my little covey of 97 Traps, but only one in extremely high condition. Kevin McCormack and I included that one in a "Competition Pigeon Guns" display at the Baltimore Antique Arms Collectors show a couple of years ago. Even though the display included some high grade Parker pigeon guns as well as other valuable pigeon guns, the old minty 97 Trap Grade drew the most questions and offers to purchase. Who knows what turns collectors on?

Shooting .22 Shorts - Yes, i shoot them all the time in my Hi Standard Olympic. Best pistol I own.

Feeling as if I should know, but who was Nash Buckingham?

I shot some shorts in my Smith and Wesson K22 and from that day to this it has been difficult to chamber a LR round. I've tried everything to reem out the chambers. I even chucked a cleaning brush on a drill and ran it through the chambers at high speed...LR rounds still stick.

2of my favorite .22short guns are a Winchester model 1890, and a Browning semi-auto take down rifle. The Winchester is deadly on golden rod galls up to 25 yards using a Lyman peep sight. Those galls are about 3/4" in diameter. The Browning is not as accurate, due to its small size and light weight. Back to 93 pumps for a moment--a damascus 1893 would be even rarer than a model 61 shot--even rare than the pre-war 61 with the matted receiver like the model 12.

Nash Buckingham and/or his family had a couple Winchesters. The 1893 that Nash and/or Miles won, supposedly upgraded to 1897 specs --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...am/BoWhoop.jpg

Apparantly, Harold Money left his Winchester Model 1897 with Nash when he returned to England circa 1910, and then went off to manage a rubber plantation in Ceylon. After serving his King in The Great War with the Loyal North Lancashire Regiment, where he advanced through the ranks from 2nd Lieutenant, to Lieutenant, and then Captain, Harold returned to the U.S. in the 1920s and worked at A & F in New York. He apparantly got his Model 1897 back from the Buckinghams at that time, as Charles Wicks mentions him having it.

There are several pictures in Nash's books of Irma with a Model 1897. Whether it is one of the two previously mentioned guns or another, I don't know.

Oh, in that case I probably did not see one, but only read about them. Getting old you know. I've only been going to gun shows since the 50's and I've seen a few guns you see! LOL

Funny, but it seems to me that I did see one once and picked it up. Sorry, not sure. Sometimes, I wish I was 25 again. I was better looking, too.

a nurse ask my grandfather one time how he kept looking so young he was 93 then...he told her that beauty fades away but ugly only gets better... charlie

Or, "beauty is only skin deep, but ugly goes clear to the bone".

Didn't Browning make their little .22 auto, the one that loaded thru the butt and had the bolt on the bottom, in 22 short only too? I always liked how that little rifle worked, but it was like shooting a pretzel.

I use a mod 37 ithaca to great old pump guns.
All the best Dave.

I feel like I have to comment on Researcher's post about Harold Money. I just don't know what to say. Those colonial period Brits lived some lives.

Bored Bill ?.....:whistle: Hows the rehab coming?

I own two 37s, a 16 and a 12. I put choke tubes in the 12. I like 37's. The 16 is light as a feather, and while not new, it looks as such. I bought, not long ago, a bran new Remington 870 in 20 gauge which was less $ that an Ithaca of similar gauge. I also have five Model 12s in 20, 16 and a few 12s, so I'm pretty well "pumped".

Yeah, like Sir Richard Burton (not the one of Liz fame).

Dave, rehab is good. I'm driving and going to the gun club a couple of times a week, but not shooting yet. Using the cane outside the house.

This is good news Bill. Stay with it and you will be raising hell with the rest of us in no time!

Browning .22 autos (takedown) were made caliber specific as either .22 long rifle or .22 short. Shells were not interchangeable. While originally manufactured in Belgium at the FN plant, production was moved to Japan for cost control reasons. Noy too long after the move, the .22 short version was discontinued. They were never very popular (think .410 Parkers) and currently bring significantly more bucks than the long rifle version. The last production of the .22 short variety from Belgium was in the late 90s for the Browning Collectors Group. I have one and it is a beautiful gun, comparable to a grade 2 in engraving and a grade 3 in wood and checking.

Thanks, Bill! I thought that I had seen .22 Short Browning autos. I'd like to have one. I do have that little lever Browning .22 which is Short, Long or Long Rifle. I guess I can just dump half a box of shorts in it and go to town!

I am a great fan of the .22, but aren't we all?

seen a box of 22 longs for sale lately...other than on collector ammo sites... charlie

All in all, .22s are my favorite guns, even more than Parkers, truth be told. Winchester made the finest, in my opinion. I have a large number of their guns and have never found one that was innaccurate. All are deadly, from the little bolt actions to their semi auto model 63, and all the pumps in between. Charlie, Winchester made the model 1890 in .22 long, but they are hard to find--.22short and .22WRF are more commob--.22 Long Rifle are scarce, too. My finest for pure accuracy is a 1935 model 52 with a Unertl 12 power scope. I have shot bugs on my target butt with it--off a bench, of course. Before I got as old as I now am, I would walk my farm with a .22 almost every day.