Why is the 8 bore illegal for waterfowl/migratory game?
 

I know there was a law passed in 1918 but can my fellow 8 bore shooters explain the rationale.
Was it considered an unfair advantage? [It aint no punt gun.]

Does the rationale still hold when we have 3.5 inch magnum 10 and 12 gauge guns?

Who wants to be a plaintiff?

#1 - its government - rational has nothing to do with it.

I don't think the migratory bird act of 1918 did outlaw the 8 guage - the firearms act of 1938 did. it may have seemed to have been thought too big, killing or crippling more birds with a single sho

the extra long 12's and 10 came around after the ban.

it is still legal in the UK - where the more logical answer is - if you are only going to shoot so many birds - what does it matter what you shoot them with.

Why is the length of any gauge shell restricted to 3.5"? Why is lead shot banned from use on waterfowl? Why is there a 3 shot plug law? Because government reacts to perceived problems through regulation of the associated activities. It draws lines and places restrictions on the activity, and sometimes those lines are based on flawed science and logic or worse, political gain.

At the turn of the 20th century market hunting was considered to be threatening waterfowl populations. I believe the restrictions started with the Weeks-McClean Act of 1913 and then fortified with the Migratory Bird Treaty Act of 1918. There was a belief that guns larger than 10 gauge gave gunners too great an advantage over their quarry. Enough legislators believed it was part of the problem so it became law. My guess is even back then most of the government officials voting on such a restriction had no practical experience using those large guns, but they felt like they did something to protect waterfowl populations.

Actually it appears the gauge restriction came about in a 1936 Migratory Bird Act/Treaty. I am not clear if it amended the law/treaty of 1918 or was a new one.

tom arbrust has tried to have this law changed but with no luck yet...in his book 4 and 8 bores he writes of this....someone once stated a law is not to hard to get passed and be made legal but its almost impossible to get that law changed....me i love the old 8 bore sure would be nice to use it one time on a goose or duck hunt without having to look over your shoulder... charlie

3.5 inches
 

So...... is my gut uneducated opinion correct? Is the 12 and 10 3.5 inch shell just about as powerful as the 8 bore?
Is the shot load comparable?

George,

With all else being equal, i.e. weight of size of shot, shot hardness. cushioning of wad, velocity an so on, a larger bore will produce a more evenly distributed pattern. Allowing that three pellets in the vitals kills birds cleanly (same for humans) an evenly distributed pattern makes a larger bore gun more effective than a smaller bore.

The modern 3.5" 12 gauge allowed for a larger payload of the less dense than lead steel shot. It is in my never humble opinion as effective as an equal load of lead or soft non-toxic shot in a 2 & 7/8" 10 gauge.

Bigger bore equals a more effective pattern. Better patterns kill better and at longer ranges.

Mark

Just to throw my own 2 cents in here: First I agree that the 8 bore would be a great goose gun. My belief though as to why it is outlawed is because market hunters years ago shot indiscriminately into flocks of waterfowl sitting on the water and killed many but wounded others. I doubt any of us would condone this as a sporting way to hunt. The government then outlawed the bigger bores and had to stop somewhere so it stopped at the 10 bore. I believe had the hunters of yesteryear used any shotgun in a more sporting manner there would have not been any law passed restricting the size of the shotgun to a specific area of bore size. One more thing; one of the above writers mentioned the restriction of shotshell length over 3 1/2 inches. To my knowledge anyone can use any length shotshell they choose or that the manufacturers will produce. There is no limit on length except for recoil to the shooter. I have shot a Remington autoloader in a 3 1/2 inch shell and won't shoot another. I enjoy shooting a Beretta 10 gauge side by side and have shot rifles up to 470 Nitro including 416 Rigby and 375 H&H. I enjoyed shooting all of them but the 3 1/2 inch shotgun is not enjoyable for me to shoot. The 12 gauge 3 inch shotshell is my limit. Having said that I still find I am pretty darned effective with the 2 1/2 inch shell.

When I worked for NH Fish & Game several years ago I recall a restriction on shotshell length was introduced to prevent even longer 10ga shells than 3.5". My recall is the proposal was adopted and codified as law in the CFR somewhere. Perhaps it was a proposal that did not become law but there was initiative to do it.

I am still looking for a federal restriction but there are some states using a shotshell length restriction of 3 1/2 inches:

http://www.lrc.state.ky.us/kar/301/002/222.htm

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/public/...andAnimals.pdf

The Lacy Act made them illegal for migratory birds only. Otherwise, each state can decide whether they can be used for hunting, and many states do. They can be used down here. I started a thread on this over a year ago (8/24/2010). There was a lot of discussion. Mostly pro use but some where opposed to any use. IMHO, they don't know what they are talking as my 12 ga 3 1/2" turkey gun puts 300 pellets in. 10" circle at 40 yards using Nitro Company's Mega weight blend. (75 pellets at 70 yrs). I doubt an old 8 ga with a paper wad would out do it.

ray what kind of choke do you use andwhat size shot and almost forgot what brand of gun... ive got to try my old eight gauge against your guns shooting ability but i think your turkey gun will be the winner...you did say 70 yards 10 inch circle and 100 pellets in the 10 inch circle...charlie

Charlie

It's a Winchester SX2. The Mega weight load is new. It's like Hevi shot but they use bronze instead of nickel in the mixture. I started out using a Rhino .670 and a Indian Creek .665. I got about 260-270 pellets in 10" at 40 yds. Unsatisfied, I had Indian Creek make me a custom choke at .675 and the count increased to 290-300. It's a 2 7/16 oz load and I think opening it up to .675 just gave the shot a better chance getting out of the gun which improved the pattern. It's a lot of shot and weight at 2 7/16 oz.

I only do about 70-75 pellets in 10" at 70 yds. I would be interesting to see what your 8 ga does. Problem you can't shoot the shot size I use because it's 4x5x6x7 blend. Plus you can't choke it down as tight as I can. What is the choke size in your 8 ga? It seems most ive seen are not even full choked.

Best, ray

By the way, I don't believe most market hunters were using 8 ga for ducks when they were outlawed. I'll bet that if someone did the research they would find that the gun of choice was a 12 ga pump because in those days prior to Lacy Act you don't have to plug your pump. It was a lot more fire power then a two barrel 8 ga.

IMO, 8 ga shouldn't be outlawed for any reason. Your limit of ducks is 6-what's the difference how they die? Most game regulations don't make sense when you think about it. For example, I'll go away duck hunting for 3 days. I can kill 6 a day for a total of 18. But I can't take them all home with me because my possession limit is 12. Tell me how that makes any sense! Just a way for the gov't to hassle law abiding citizen, IMO. It's a waste of our tax money. Did you ever see some of these game officials? They carry stun guns, pistols, wear bullet proof vests, etc. They look like members of Seal Team 6. For what? To make sure I didn't kill an extra teal? That's how our tax dollars are spent worrying about a duck. Pls don't get me started!

Ray

ray i bet that winchester kicks pretty good shooting that heavy of a load in a 12 ga...ive shot up to 3 ounces in the old 8 ga f a loomis...the old 8 kicks pretty good with this load...my old 8 is choked about modiefied...the closet thing in shot size ive got at the moment is a load of no 6 s lead in 2 1/2 ounce load...i dont think my 8 will beat your score of 70 to 75 pellets at 70 yards but im gonna try this load after a while will post results tonight...i will step off 70 paces and i will take long steps if my gun shoots any were near yours i will then measure the distance..my old 8 ga really patters better with large shot than small...well im off to try that 10 inch circle... charlie

well just got back from trying the 8 ga out..i steped off 70 long steps used a paper plate as a target it was only 8 1/2 inch in dimater used the no 6 loads in 2 1/2 ounce...these loads had no shot collar...but as it may RAY your 12 ga out shot my 8 pretty goodi only put 16 pellets in the plate...i tried a load of no 2 s and it put 6 pellets in the plate...looks like ive got a lot of shooting and fiddlin around with loads to get the results you are getting... charlie

Charlie
Can't wait for results so we can prove that any ban on 8 ga is nonsense!

You know, I never feel the recoil when I kill one of those rascally gobblers. I probably shouldn't post this because someone is bound to call me an unethical hunter, but I dropped one stone cold dead at 68 yards (per my rangefinder) in the pouring rain. Had no choice. He was hung up when it started to down pour. If I didn't pull the trigger he would have been gone. He had 11.5" beard and 1 3/4" spurs!

Best, Ray

Sounds like you're lucky you killed that bad boy Ray as I bet he was heading over to kick your butt all over the woods!

The possession limit is designed to restrict the number of birds taken by any hunter.

Possession limit on the first day of a season is the daily bag limit.

I can not kill another duck on day 3 of a hunt away from home if I have 12 birds in my "possession" (6 bird daily limit). The hunt is over at 12 birds in possession.

Birds are in possession until they are "processed" at my permanent address.

States sell three day licenses, the possession limit of two days bag limit is a federal law.

George Bird Evans commented on this once,

he thought it was unfair to reward a hunter who eats faster than he did.

JB

Here is how you solve that problem. Have the first six dicks for dinner on the first night, shoot 12 more and take them home, and tell the Feds to get a life.

Charlie

It is as I thought, ie 8 ga gives no advantage over modern 12 ga. Although I wouldn't mind smoking one of those rascals with your 8 ga. What a blast that would be!

I don't know much about shooting clays but I can build a turkey gun. With today's shot,
choke and wad technology, etc one could probably build a 20 ga that will out shoot an old 8 ga. My kids 20 ga puts about 200 in a 10" circle at 40 yards. I think I'll do some more work on it and see what I can get at 70 yds. I bet I can get 40 pellets which is more then enough to kill 'em.

Richard

He kicked my butt by hanging up for an hour and half! The mental torment was much worse then a good butt kicking! I actually hunted that same turkey all last year and he won every time. I worked on my gun with different chokes, shot, etc so I could reach out and get him this year. No one told him that play time was over!

Best, Ray

ray you sure have given me chore in trying to make my old 8 ga shoot with your gun...my problem is i can not get the good wadding you can get for a 12 ga but i do have an iddeas to try...hey you may have all of us shooting 20 gas if you get your boys gun to put 40 pellets in a 10 inch circle at70 yards...hope you continue working on the 20 ga loads and gun i will keep working on the 8 ga load...will try a load in a few minutes... charlie

Charlie

The wad is a problem but I think the biggest difference is the choke size of your gun. Remember my choke is super tight at .675. I think your gun was made to blast 'em at closer ranges.

Ray

ray you could be rite but ive read a lot on these old 8 s and some of them were 100 yard killers of geese and ducks...im working with some new wads hope to improve my patterns by the weekend...got to work in the garden the next few days.... charlie

Charlie

I have read those stories too but don't believe them. Many a punt gun or other mini cannon but not a shot gun. Even if the shot could travel that far, it would spread out and not have the knock down power needed to kill geese in any number, if at all. I don't know much about shooting an 8 ga but they also don't seem to have very tight chokes. Most I've seen, and it not many, are in the modified choke area. No way they kill anything at 100 yds.

My turkey gun uses modern powder and wads. Has 2 7/16 oz of shot, as much as an 8 ga. Very tight choke. After 70 yds it is pretty much useless. I don't believe an 8 ga would ever do better merely because it's fatter!

The stories are folklore and your tests show that 8 ga should not be illegal for any hunting. The regulators are crazy. My turkey gun with three rounds is far more lethal then any 8 ga with two. We should start a movement so you can go hunt ducks with your!

Best, Ray

well ray ive been doing some more shooting...have not beat the 16 pellets with the 8 ga yet..tried my best browning pump gun wich is a 3 inch gun shot a no 6 lead 3 inch winchester supreme load at 70 steps at the same 8 1/2 inch paper plate only 16 pellets in it....got the ithaca 10 ga magnum out used a hevi shot load of 1 3/4 ounce of no 6 and it put 36 pellets in the paper plate at the same 70 steps. this old ithaca has a fixed full choke...found some of the shells you are using in 10 ga it should bring up the number count ...the payload in them was 2.4 ounce in no 4 5 6 and 7 size shot at 1350 fps.. and they like them shells too these things cost to much to shoot much... i shot several 3 inch and 3 1/2 inch 12ga just reguler loads at the 70 step target but results were very poor... ray what will your gun do with just a ordinary 3 1/2 inch shell say a no 6 2 ounce or 2 1/4 ounce shell...i know choke is important but i think the reason we get good results is because of these new shells.... charlie

Charlie

In my gun the choke makes all the difference. I tested the following chokes: .660, .665, .670 and .675. All by different manufacturers. Then I tested them with different ammo. Using Hevi shot no 6 3 1/2" shell, I got 260-270 pellets in 10" at 40 yds. That was with Rhino .670 choke. My best combo is the Indian Creek .675 choke with the mega weight blend with 290-300.

Charlie, I just don't think you are going to be able to do much better with modified choke.
Just not tight enough. I don't think your gun was intended to go real long range.

Best, Ray

Charlie

In my gun the choke makes all the difference. I tested the following chokes: .660, .665, .670 and .675. All by different manufacturers. Then I tested them with different ammo. Using Hevi shot no 6 3 1/2" shell, I got 260-270 pellets in 10" at 40 yds. That was with Rhino .670 choke. My best combo is the Indian Creek .675 choke with the mega weight blend with 290-300.

Charlie, I just don't think you are going to be able to do much better with modified choke.
Just not tight enough. I don't think your gun was intended to go real long range.

Best, Ray

ray could you shoot and pattern just a reguler 3 1/2 inch shell with just no 6 shot ....would be interesting to know the differance between the blended loads and just a reguler old shell...in my old 10 ga its the shell thats making a big differance..it put 36 pellets in the plate with a hevi shot shell versus only 12 to 16 on average with a regular shell... if your gun shoots the regular shells as well as it does the blended load or even close then its got to be the choke and not the shell making the differance...thanks .... charlie

Charlie

I looked through my patterns shot this past spring. Using #6 copperas plated lead turkey load, it shot it the 230-250 range 40 yds/10" circle. I isn't shoot the lead at 70 sp I don't know what it would do at that distance. You want me to give it a try at 70 yds? If I had to guess it would be in the 40 pellet range. Hevi shot is always better then lead, and in my
gun Mega shot is always better than Hevi shot.

There is no doubt the tight choke makes a big difference. Remember my turkey choke is XXFull. But I have to tell you getting 36 pellets at 70 yds is pretty darn good for that old 8 ga. Sure would kill a turkey. I remember the days i thought getting 36 pellets at 40 yds was good! You better send it down here so I can give it a try next spring!

Best, Ray

Ray,

What is "mega shot"?

Mark

Mark

Hevi shot is made of tungsten, nickel and iron, and Mega shot is made of tungsten, bronze and iron. Mega is about 10-15% heavier and unlike, Hevi it is round-not chunks of metal. Mega shoots better out of my Brownings but Hevi shoots better out of my Benelli's. I was able to increase the effective range of my turkey gun this yr by about 10 yds by using Mega. Mega give me more even patterns too although the Hevi shot is very, very good. The difference in the quality of pattern wouldn't matter to most hunters.
The Hevi likes a tighter choke. I think because the Mega round has a lot of weight. 2 1/4 vs 2 7/16. But I think that extra weight has given me more down range effectiveness. Sadly, I don't know of any major ammo maker who uses Mega. But it will catch on over the next few years I think. It costs slightly more than Hevi but I think worth it. Also wont scratch your barrel as bad as Hevi.

Best, Ray

a tangent here on the topic of big bores and wildfowling.

the newest issue (June 2012) to arrive of the UK's Shooting Gazetee has a letter from a gentlemen who is looking to collect information and submissions from shooters on the 10 bores and bigger that are still in use in the marshes (remember the guage/bore restrictions are not in place there).

his goal is to assemble a book on the topic, that would be something to see, a four bore in action. :shock:

not sure if he would include a colonial piece :rotf:

yep ray i wpuld like for you to try your gun with the copper 6 s at 70 steps...this will give me a better idea how my guns shoot against your xx full choke... that shooting gazzette magazine would be a good read...a few of our parker people have shot the 8 and 4 bore were there still legal for water fowl... charlie

Charlie

I shot it late this afternoon. It was raining so I don't know if that had any effect. I used my xxfull and mod chokes. At 70 yds the mod. did only 5 and the xxfull did 47 in 10" circle using #6 copper turkey loads. So 8 ga does better mod choke to mod choke.

Best, Ray

I just bought a older Beretta Silver Pigeon 3 1/2 ten with 40th each barrel, haven't had a chance to pattern it. Ray what is the constriction of your XXF choke.

The gun I have been talking about here is a Win SX2. I use different chokes with different ammo. The chokes are .665, .670 and .675. Some times Benelli's like tighter chokes, ie .650 to .660. I dont know if the same applies to Beretta's. You have to try a lot of different ammo and chokes to find the best for your turkey gun.

Best, Ray

Marshland books big bore project
 

Bob Watcham is a good source for big bore information OVER THERE.
He definitely wants our gun information and communicates regularly with me. I dont think he ever sleeps in his time zone!

he also has a nice catalog of wildfowling books.

ray thanks for shooting and patterning the gun for me... this proves to me that its definatly the choke thats making the biggest differance in the patterns...its gonna be a while before i beat 47 pellets in the 10 inch circle if ever but heh it gives me something to try for...heh ray you are making me almost cross over to the dark side in guns...got one more old gun to try and see what it does... thanks charlie

george how would you go about talking to bob watcham...i would like to see his list of wild fowling books and info on the big bores... charlie

he listed marshlandbooks@btinternet.com for contact info

Oh me oh my, I never try to ascribe meaning to what the government does when it comes to bird hunting/shotguns. Trying to do so will drive you to drink. Not that all gun/hunting laws are all bad, we need seasons, etc...

I am still perplexed about the steel shot requirments. Were ducks really injesting lead shot and dying of lead poisoning? I know "they" say they were, but were they? Have duck numbers improved since the advent of steel shot requirements? Does anyone know?

Until recently I had not shot at a duck since the steel law came into effect. I am probably not the only one to do so.