Damascus Made for Smokeless
 

Here's some early documents showing that Parker intended smokeless powder use in damascus guns.

1891 . Two photos of an order page showing a CH Bernard to be targeted with Wood's powder, an early bullk smokeless.

1897 A series of photos from the 1897 Parker catalog showing lifter action hammer guns, top action hammer guns and hammerless guns, and the catalog paragraph explaining the use of smokeless powder in all Parker guns.

Bruce:
Simply more proof that the no-smokeless-in-Damascus sham was -- and is -- just that: A marketing crock to get consumers fearful of expensive Damascus guns and to buy more cost-effective/profitable fluid steel barrel guns.

Best, Kensal

Remington advertised their Model 1894 double as "Guaranteed for Nitro Powder" around the same time. A powder we know today as "Unique" was first made available in 1898 but was named "Infallible".

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/j...atalogue-1.jpg

Neet stuff Bruce great research. Is there any hammer guns known with tapered chambers Peter Parker has brass chambers I checked Bruce. ch

As did Hunter Arms c. 1895

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../397199518.jpg

Looks like all the top makers were switching to nitro by the early to mid 1890s. This was 120 years ago. Yet we see GI and GA ads today for top maker damascus guns and saying "for blackpowder use only" and people come here asking if they can shoot them with nitro. Most of these were designed for nitro and likely have never shot anything but.

Austin Hogan told me how a person can tell if a gun has been used with black. Of course I didn't know. He said to look for pits. It takes only one day of hunting in wet weather for pits to start after shooting black.

I would expect to find the move from black powder to nitro powder (dense or bulk) was swift once nitro was introduced for the simple reasons of less to no smoke, less barrel fouling and ease of cleaning. Pits may be the result of corrosive primers rather than BP as there are pitted barrels on guns built long after nitro powders were dominant.

I have been told by an avid flintlock shooter that black powder was not the cause of pitting. He says the fulminate of mercury primers were the culprit. He has a collection of old flintlock guns, most with no bore pitting. The percussion guns are the start of widespread pitting of bores according to the flinter.

Best,


Mike

Mike:
Your information is spot on. While black powder fouling does draw moisture if left uncleaned from the bore, it was the evil fulminate of mercury in the percussion caps and early smokeless primers that did the real harm.

With modern primer mixtures, pits are banished. Simple as that.

Best, Kensal

it is true that Fulminate of Mercury will create a hygroscopic salt after detonation, but the really nasty compound in older primers is the potassium chlorate. This was added to make the flame created burn even hotter. This is even MORE hygroscopic. On top of this it has the added curse that when wet, the potassium ions released will cause metal to rust even faster than sodium. This explains why all the "old Timers" like my uncle would rush home to clean their guns after a day of shooting.

Interesting...But I faithfully clean my guns after a day of shooting.

Oh no, I never said it wasn't good practice, because it is, but back then, It was absolutely mandatory.

My flinter friend and I have both let the black powder residue sit in barrels for a long period of time, in my case for over a year, as an experiement. After a few months it turns light grey. Neither he nor I had any rust or pitting of the bores. We both live in the same relatively dry climate but still an interesting outcome. We have an average of 21" of rain a year and are at 3700 feet of elevation.

I experimented on a cheap pre-war steel barrel Belgian gun, he on a reproduction flintlock.

Best,


Mike

Back in the day, flintlock muskets were converted to percussion (by US arsenals) by plugging the tough hole & drilling/tapping the top-rear of the barrel for a nipple. Later on, people began to "re-convert" these guns back to flintlock. However, one thing that they had to do to make it convincing was to file away all of the horrible cratering (not pitting, but CRATERING) caused by persussion cap reside on the surface of the barrel (around the nipple). Such deep cratering is never seen on guns that are in original flint condition. Although Mike got way with a year without cleaning, in more humid climates, I'm sure some rust will result - but the gist of his point is still valid - no doubt in my mind.

Damn - I meant to type "touch hole" - not tough hole ! (Freudian slip ????)

So again, my point was to agree that primers caused more problems than powders...

I can believe it. Potassium is extremely aggressive and basic in nature.

This is a video showing what happens when you load a muzzle-loading rifle with DENSE nitro powder using a BULK powder measure. It also shows the effects of a barrel obstruction. I expect similiar results if you load any dense nitro powder using BP or bulk powder measure regardless of whether the gun has composite or fluid steel barrels.

120gr of HS-6 creates a pipe bomb.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmsBF6CXs18

Holy cats! 120 garins of HS-6 would blow a cannon apart! But boy I'll tell you, a picture or a video is worth 1,000 words!

Wonder how many grains they loaded in this one? !!:shock::shock:

Ummm, 120 grains of HS-6?

The cannon pictured above is a 10" Parrot rifle that burst due to a premature bust of a shell in the bore. The muzzle was chiseled smooth, and it continued in use for 370 more rounds. As the gun was built, used and destroyed during the Civil War, no smokeless powder was involved. The burst tube was cast iron, and the reinforcing band at the breech was welded from a bar of wrought iron, shrunk on. I guess the band could be considered a form of Damascus!

With regard to corrosive primers, I have been doing some internet research this morning, and based on what I have found, mercury fulminate primers were not corrosive. Mercury fulminate primers were discontinued due to short shelf life, which led to misfires and hang fires. Potassium chlorate which replaced the mercuric primers is highly corrosive, but more stable, which is why it was used by the military through WWII.
The true corrosiveness of chlorate primers was not realized until after the advent of smokeless powder. Black powder produces large quantities of unburned residue which absorbed much of the oxidizing residue of the primers, and removal of the black powder residue with water also removed most or all of the chlorate residue, depending on the thoroughness of the cleaning.
Smokeless powder did not leave the quantity of unburned residue of black powder, so a few passes with a brush left an apparently clean barrel, except that the chlorate residue imbedded in the pores of the metal could not be seen.Before the true cause of the corrosion was discovered, it was usually blamed on the smokeless powder. The military found that the corrosion could be avoided by thorough cleaning with soap and water. My early rifle training was at Ft. Jackson and FT. Bragg with the M1 rifle and WWII ammo. On days when we fired, GI trash cans with immersion heaters were set up in the company street and filled with boiling soapy water to clean the rifles.

That is really interesting, Tom, thanks for sharing. Also note that Elemental potassium reacts with water (i.e. humidity) to form a base, Potassium Hydroxide. Basic compounds are highly corrosive and reactive to metals, especially steel. The soap would dissolve and neutralize any traces of KOH that could be present.