non-toxic shot and parkers
 

I just bought my first Parker and am new to this group. I was wondering if steel or other non-toxic's will hurt the barrel. I have a Parker 20ga Trojan grade. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

It is generally accepted that Parkers and steel don't mix or shouldn't. Barrel metallurgy from the 1800-1900's just isn't up to the effects of steel shot. The various non-toxics question is better answered by those in our group that are much more expert than I.

That said, there are the repo Parkers--one version is called the "Steel Shot Special". If you must use one of these.

There are several options, though all are pretty expensive these days. The best is the Kent Tungsten Matrix shells, they still make them in 20 gauge and you won't be able to tell the difference between them and lead. Also RST makes a cartridge that's loaded with NiceShot, any of their 20 gauge loads are excellent. That's probably your two best bets, there are other options but they're mostly out of production and would have to be found on the secondary market.


Destry

Do you reload? That opens up other options such as Bismuth.

http://www.precisionreloading.com/mm...Category_Code=

Travis,

Thank you for joining the PGCA!

As Mr. "Short Ten" Books suggests, reloading is wise when one desires to go fowling with a vintage gun and especially those in gauges other than 12.

Many of us shoot the 2 7/8" in length "short ten" with Nice Shot or ITX with great success!

Mark

Although i do not reload i am starting to think it is going to be the way to go. In Minnesota there is lots of federal land to hunt for Grouse and Pheasent and they require nontoxic shot. I will have to start looking into reloaders.

Thanks for all of the help.

Travis,
I reload everything and have been quite happy with Nice Shot. Have also shot factory and hand loaded Bismuth with good results and Kent TM. Bang for the buck goes to Nice Shot. Easy to load and MUCH cheaper if you do it yourself. It is not brittle like bismuth.
-plc-

Travis:
If your Parker is nice, I'd handload lead for it. Then shoot wherever and wait until the Enviro-Gestapo stops by to cut open one of your cartridges. If they find lead, claim "oops, musta grabbed the wrong shells!"
Scratches in your barrels aren't worth risking non-tox shot. Although some seems to work.

Best, Kensal

Does anyone have any experience with getting caught with lead for waterfowl? Each year I go to the annual hunting show and there is the Department of Game just as proud as peacocks standing over a box of guns that have been cut in half, showing how hard they are on criminals. Never mind that there are $10,000 worth of over/unders, rifles, etc. cut in half, and it could be daddy's family heirloom gun that the outlaw kid used at night to spotlight a deer. I asked the Director why in this day and time of tight budgets would you not sell those in a lot to the highest bidding FFL holder and use the money to pay a game warden's salary, and he looked at me dumbfounded. So, do they confiscate guns when you violate Federal non-toxic shot only rules? I would not lose a Parker over $3 each shells.

yes, but do they have a right to take my own shells and cut them open. i would think you would need a search warent. :corn:

Around here they have an electonic device that they stick a shell in and get a reading on whether it's nontoxic or not. No cutting open. The wardens all know me and never check me but interestingly, a couple of years ago I gave the warden a Nice shot load I had made up and it failed the test. He didn't take me to task on it but it showed that the machine wasn't ready for some of the new nontoxics. It wasn't a magnetic issue either. I don't know if they have modified it yet to accept Nice shot.

I had that same problem in Canada a couple years ago when I was testing the new NiceShot 10 gauge loads for RST. Warden stuck one in the machine and it came up lead, he could see the printing on the shell obviously, and didn't give me any trouble about it though. Sometimes technology takes a minute to catch up.

DLH

Yes, technology does take a bit to catch up, but by Code of Federal Regulations - Title 50: Wildlife and Fisheries section #6 "Field detection device. Before approval of any shot for use in migratory game bird hunting, a noninvasive field testing device must be available for enforcement officers to determine the shot material in a given shell in the field." This obviously precludes the need for a fish and wildlife officer from cutting a shell open to determine if the shot in it is indeed non-toxic and therefore legal for migratory bird hunting. Personally, I feel the advise to disregard these federal regulations is ill advised, and could result in a confiscation of your firearm, loss of hunting privileges and a substantial fine. But further, and perhaps more importantly, such advise flies in the face of “doing what is right”. As members of this fine organization we should both publicly and privately represent the best in shooting and hunting ethics. We owe this to future generations. I’ll now dismount my high horse.

Well said Steve. And good advice too.

For those of you who might not know Steve yet, he is a 30 plus year NH Law Enforcement veteran... and a damn nice guy too. :usa:

FWIW, the reason you don't encounter a "shell checker" in the field too often is a combination of their cost, lack of 100% reliability and more importantly the most accurate machines use fairly powerful rare earth magnets that present a health hazard through exposure to them. If you want to have some fun with the warden tell him you know what it is and how it works and let him know you'd like to step back about ten paces before he turns it on. :)

On more serious note although I agree with Steve it has hard to ignore the trampling of freedom by that law for making it an offense to simply have lead shot on one's person when waterfowl hunting. This presumption of guilt prevents one from carrying a couple of lead slugs (they are not shot but many agencies will ticket a duck hunter for having them) when deer and waterfowl seasons overlap. Similiarly when crow hunting there are many times during the early goose season to shoot a goose. Geese usually give plenty of warning of their approach, enough time to switch to a heavy load of big non tox shot but if you shoot at the goose you have all the lead crow loads on your person which breaks the law. IMO the law is flawed, it should be what shell was used to take a bird not what you have in your pocket. It assumes one is a criminal before you pull the trigger and that is wrong. The same approach used elsewhere would make one a drunk driver for having a six pack in your truck or woman guilty of prostitution because she has the plumbing.

I'll play by the rules so far..... I agree with Steve. But I will follow Pete's advice if I ever have the chance. Never talked to a game warden in my life. They got a lot of ground to cover around here. best ch FWIW??? Pete

Steve’s comments are sound. For years many duck hunters would shoot lead and chance not getting caught. If they did their logic was that the cost of good non-toxic for a few years of shooting would be much more than a fine for getting caught with lead shot. It looks like the Fed’s finally figured that out and are now confiscating the tools of the crime.

Maybe one of our attorneys could comment of this. I understand that game law allows a warden to enter one’s premises without a warrant should he (she) have probably cause. That gives our game wardens the broadest powers of any law enforcement personnel. Well, maybe the Patriot act allows some 3-letter agencies more but hopefully we don’t have to worry about those issues… :)

Mark

i am no lawyer, but probable cause - referrenced in the 4th amendment - is the basis for all searches ad arrests, I doubt that differers for game wardens. To enter without a warrent requires a high level of belief that a crime is being commited at that moment or someone is in immediate danger.

Game wardens are for the most part over worked, unfortunately to the point of little effectiveness. my three interactions with both state and fed have been in reporting violations - three times, not once did they react - even though the violation was still occurring near by. I have never been check for license or loads and I have been at this for awhile.

I will admit the assumption of guilt is annoying, if I carry buckshot to protect my dogs against coyotes, I am illegally deer hunting.

Non Tox is the law (and for waterfowl I think it does make sense)- if I expected to find ducks on a grouse hunt - then its non tox for grouse. If I only have lead, the ducks are safe.

so avoiding confiscation of your gear is not too diificult, assuming honest enforcement.

if I were to complain - it would be the cost of non tox shells, i sometimes wonder if it can always be justified, sorta like gas - got have it - gonna pay for it.

Rick,

Long ago I gave up the autoloaders for waterfowl. If I have but 2 shots with up to $3 in each tube, I make those two shots count!

When hunting with my autoloader friends they would fill their limits sooner than did I. At week's end when comparing the number of ducks taken and number of shots fired my kill ratio was almost twice as high. That was with me not being as good a wingshot as those auto shooters.

I look at it this way. I work long and hard and make $xx per hour. If I need to shoot 7 or 8 times for 5 ducks even at $3 per shot it is still a great buy compared to other pleasures. Heck, the gas to drive to the hunting area probably cost me as much as the day's non-toxic ammo. So, if the ammo costs too much maybe one should stop taking risky shots. Isn't that what decoys are for, to lure the game into range...

Mark

Yes Mark and what will we do when lead is outlawed for all hunting? I use 1600 - 2000 shells year through a double to hunt crows. I guess when that happens I will trade in a Parker for a Rem 1100 and shoot the cheapest steel shot available. Non-Tox is completely impractical from an economic stand point for any high volume shooting whether game or clay. We tend to look at things and pass judgment through the narrow prism of how something affects us personnally rather than the overall impact on the shooting sports.

autoloader??? they shoot ducks with pistols :shock: :rotf:

I agree the cost doesn't stop me, but that doesn't mean its justified, with luck and or hard work, I can pretty much do what I like. although I do know it does affect some people.

Heck on the days I do drive to the office (its a 150 mile round trip in a 4Runner) I haven't had to sell a Parker or even a Fox or a bamboo rod for a tankfull - yet

JB:
Your wisdom is showing again. Good.

The issue I have with steel/non-tox shot is that it is totally UNNECESSARY. The law that requires it is based on junk science. Many studies have proven this. So... to appease enviro-idiots who were occupying college admin buildings when I was hunting ducks with lead, we have a law. Based on nothing but imagined ills. And oh yes... more ducks and waterfowl than ever before -- and not one of which has ever been found to have ingested non-tox shot and kept it in their systems long enough to die of any related poisoning!

I'll wager you could pour a handful of lead No. 4 down a Canada goose and it would be in the grass inside of 20 minutes.

Sadly, the "hippies" are now running the government, and we get to ruin a good Parker with unnecessary "technology" or get arrested by one of their minions. Some Brave New World.

Best, Kensal

What does gripe me is that I shoot lead at doves over the same field that I can't use lead for geese. But I guess the lead for doves will come to an end all too soon with the idiots in charge of the regulations.

But from all of this, has been developed the heavier than lead shot, which when shooting at geese and turkeys delivers results that could never be achieved with lead. But a box (5 shells) of the Hevi-shot Turkey blend is now $35 up from what was $25 last year! That is beyond belief.

I guess I'm going back to loading it myself for modern guns and back to lead only in doubles for turkey hunting. At $7 a shot for what was $2.50 two years ago I hope they price themselves out of the market.

If you don't shoot a lot of shells per year in the field and therefore you are not concerned with a negative economic impact from a broader non-tox mandate, consider what a lead ban may do to the resale value of your classic american doubles. I suspect all but the most collectable specimins will lose value in the market and the overall interest in classic doubles will wane due to their limited usefulness in a non-tox shot world. 20+ years later after lead was banned for waterfowling, no replacement has been found that meets all three criteria of economical, effective and safe for old doubles.

This lead ban is coming boys, maybe it won't happen next season but it's coming. And yes, I think it will hurt the market for old guns. When I was a kid in Southern Illinois a Browning A5 Magnum or a 3 inch Model 12 Winchester was like a piece of gold. Now you could hardly give one to most waterfowlers because they're afraid to shoot steel out of them.


Destry

I would expect Trojans, V, P, and G's would suffer the same fate, and of course if their value is signifcantly affected then I guess you might as well run the steel shot through them and not worry about it.

Pete,

Your logic is sound but your wrath toward me is not justified. I responded from my point of view because that is what this threat was about, despite the title, waterfowling and upland hunting with lead. From an economic basis the cost of non-toxic ammo for most is small compared to all other hunting costs. Gas to go hunting ususally costs me more than the ammo.

Had you ask me what I think of the lead ban for any species my response would have been very close to that of Kensel. I had typed something similar but lost it... :( Kensel's response was definately on target!

The present situation is that one can break the law and risk a fine and their gun, follow the law like a good citizen, or be politically active to change the law. Since you must be the latter please send me a copy of the correspondences you have sent to Congress so that I may quickly do the same.

Mark

There was no wrath. I simply pointed out that what you expressed is a common point of view taken by many who don't shoot enough shells to be adversely affected. You truly believe the law is reversible? I think that is at best wishful thinking and that a broader requirement for non-tox for everything is on the horizon. I truly believe we have as much chance reversing it as we would to have laws relaxed for the use of DDT. Being green and saving the planet is a majority of public opinion and a very popular political stance if you want to be elected. If you care to shovel it against an incoming tide I am sure you are capable without my help. Lead in the environment has been considered a toxin to be eliminated for 40 years, taken out of gasoline, paint, solder, shotguns. It was pretty obvious to me lead as firearm projectile days were numbered when our armed forces began moving to non toxic ammunition for small arms.

FWIW I was successful in stopping a proposal from going forward by the L/E division of my state's wildlife agency that if implemented would have technically made it a violation for hunting over bait if you were in a cut cornfield or standing under an oak tree. Sounds ridiculous but true, the reason, there was ONE guy they couldn't catch poaching bears over bait, the solution create a law so broad it would make the L/E job easier. Their answer about the corn field oak tree problem, "no L/E officer would do that, there is officer discretion". Had I not pointed out the law would affect those hunting cut cornfields an sitting by an oak tree it had a good chance of becoming law.

Pete,

Good work on the Oak Tree Bait Issue!

If you want to concede to the greenies on the lead shot issue then why complain about it and correct me for making a simple economic assessment? My assessment was correct. For most the price of non-toxic for hunting is a small part of hunting costs. If lead would be banned for target shooting then we’d all be in trouble.

I do not think that the law concerning no lead for waterfowl is reversible but it is the place to dig in our political feet and stand our ground. Since you were so quick to educate me on the shortsightedness of what you perceive my views are, I asked you to share with us your political correspondence so that we, or at least me, could learn from your actions and send similar correspondence to our/my representatives. Politicians keep that of the numbers of letters, email, and phone call their offices receive that are for or against an issue. Letters get the most points, then emails, followed by calls.

To paraphrase a Bruce Willis movie line, We are either part of the solution or part of the problem. Complaining to others feels good but accomplishes little. Organizing and complaining to politicians might make a difference. It seems to work for the NRA!

Mark

Mark, I rather doubt there are more than 100 high volume crow hunters in the country and Scott K. and I are probably in very small group of those using vintage doubles to do it. I don't there would be much political sympathy for our particular sport. What is the next high volume game shooting, Dove?

Where the feds messed up on waterfowl with regards to non-tox might be avoided if an exception was made say for guns that can be purchased with a C&R license (easily ID's as an antique). The argument would be the owners of vintage doubles will suffer a significant monetary loss if a total lead ban is enacted and we should either be exempt or compensated for it.

Gentlemen:
The wisdom from you all is well-stated and prescient. However, regarding JB's prediction that classic doubles will suffer value depreciation due to non-tox, I must demur.

There is more than enough private land to take your Parker hunting. Also shooting preserves are on the rise. Either welcomes lead. So do a host of sporting clays courses... which is where most of my guns get the most use.

So... unless the Fed Fairies ban lead ammunition altogether, I believe the cognoscente will still see sporting value in good double guns. Here's hoping anyway.

Best, Kensal

The preserve that I hang out at reguires steel/non tox, because the land is mortgaged, and the bank didn't want their asset (the land) "ruined" by lead shot. Fortunately, they are not enthusiastic about enforcing the ban when they see a nice gun being brought out

Gentlemen,
Lead in the environment such as pellets shot from a gun are INERT. They cause no problems, do no damage and "poison" nothing. I have posted here before that my gun club is located on the city of Baltimore's watershed, water supply impoundment. We deposit tons of lead every year and have it tested every time we mine the lead for reclamation. After 55 some odd years of shooting on these grounds, there has been no damage to the environment, not one indicator of lead leaching into the watertable. Baltimore is known for having some of the best water quality in the country. They have not been successful in banning firearms thanks to the 2nd amendment so they go about it by slowly banning the ammo that we use. Question authority my friends- they know not what they do.

Daryl I believe what you say about lead to be true. You are fortunate your gun club remains operational in that location. One of the oldest if not the oldest trap field/club in the United States was in Exeter NH on town land bordering the town resevoir. The club remains but trap shooters were forced to non-tox shot only by the town many years ago and the club no longer shoots trap today. Other clubs in NH have been affected, Pelham, where the NH State Shoot is held was forced to close two fields out of 9 after a letter was sent to the club jointly signed by the head of NH Environmental Services and NH Fish & Game when it was found those fields drop zones were in a wetland and if they didn't stop legal action would be taken. A lead ban is and will be implemented incrementally, first it was waterfowl, then it was federal lands, then hunting birds on federal depredation permits, shot drop zones in wetlands (all these things have been done) to what I think will eventually be a total lead ban for shotguns for both game and clay birds. It's coming.

PS. a few years ago NASA reported that the ice caps on Mars were shrinking at a rather fast rate, similiar to the shrinkage in ice caps seen on Earth. In spite of the evidence that global warming is happening in our SOLAR system political forces are still pushing a man made global warming agenda hurting our economy and our country. You don't have to have science on your side, you don't have to be correct, you just need a majority of chicken little citizens/voters and politicians who pander to and profit from them to get things like lead shot banned.

PPS. We have become a society obsessed with saving a planet and protecting ourselves from every possible harm real or imagined. Who in the world would have thought we'd consider putting helmets on babies who start to crawl. Just when I thought it couldn't get any more ridiculous. We are a nation of entitled wimps and whiners. Try telling a parent using one of these about lead being inert and not dangerous.

http://moms.today.msnbc.msn.com/_new...-a-helmet?lite

Pete,
What we wanted to do at our club is to be proactive and establish a baseline for Pb in the environment at and around the fields. We have 8 trap, 8 skeet and a 5 stand. So far so good. They claimed that waterfowl were ingesting spent pellets while feeding in the marshes, their gullets ground the Pb pellets thereby making then a lethal meal. If you really think about that scenario it would be like finding a needle in a haystack. I guess if you dumped a 25lb. bag of #4's on the beach they would find it and use it as grit as any bird would. The only birds I have seen die of Pb poisoning succumbed after a well placed load of #4's out of a full choke.

i think I see the problem- you reffer to science and reason,

the new generation of "environmentalists" use lies and panicked emotion

hence your last two statements (unfortunately - I do think at least their leaders know exactly what they are doing - as they say "something wicked this way comes"

VA TECH STUDY PROVED THAT THERE WAS NO DANGER FROM LEAD IN THE ENVIRONMENT
 

I have this complete study somewhere and it may easily be found. A few years back while trying to establish a public trap/skeet range, the "hunters" opposed to it came out and cited the dangers from all the lead that would be deposited at the site, even though they had been presented the report. I finally gave up.

The lead bullets from Civil War battlefields, millions still in the ground, all exhibit the white coating that seals the soluable lead. So do all the lead pellets ever shot, over time.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1129074745.htm

http://www.vtnews.vt.edu/articles/2004/11/2004-529.html

I rest my case!

This was an interesting thread and one which affects us all. I think it boils down to the fact that there is a minority of people who simply do not like shooting, hunting, firearms, skeet, trap, or anything whatsoever to do with the shooting sports or shooting in any form. These people have the ear of many politicians who will pass, "feel good", laws knowing they will not do one thing to stop crime, help wildlife or make us any safer. But no matter how much we speak volumes of reason, scientific proof and common sense our voices are not heard. In some areas like California and Illinois losing our rights will be a little faster than in Colorado, Montana or Maine. The pressure is still there though to take away our rights in little increments. Today a win in California. Tomorrow a small win in New Hampshire. You all have the picture I am trying to paint. I am 66 years old now. I can well remember when my brother and I used to take shotguns and .22 rifles on the school bus to go hunting on another farm when we were in high school. I know many of you did the same thing. Try to do that today. Our teachers, knowing we had a pretty good collection of guns asked us to bring in firearms to show the class. Our History teacher, a Marine veteran of Okinawa told his classes that if the S--t hit the fan to contact the Nix brothers as we would provide them with guns. He would most likely be fired today.

Years ago I was a deputy sheriff in Southern California. After being dispatched to take a burglary report from an older woman I drove to her house. I knocked on the door and she yelled for me to enter. After I was inside she noticed I was carrying a firearm as law enforcement officers do. She asked me to remove it and put it back in the vehicle. I told her I would not and could not do that. She became frightened and said she could not give me the report then as firearms scared her. I did my best to explain that it was holstered and would not come out unless I took it out. It could not possibly hurt her. She was unfazed by common sense. Finally I left with a very cursory report and no evidence to solve the crime as she was too frightened to continue. This is the type of citizen we have around us today. Thanks for listening.

Being new to the PGCA i was not sure what to expect when i posted this thread. I just wanted to than all of you for your advice and opinions. I found them all very helpful! I am very quickly becoming adicted to this forum, and i am already looking for my next Parker. Thank you all for responding.