11-Gauge Parkers
 

It is great to get back into the World of Parkers and to renew old friendships. I am still trying to learn more about the early Parker Underlifter Hammer Guns, particularly the 11-Ga. Parkers. I am glad to see that the PGCA has grown so much in the past several years since I drifted away to Antarctica. (I fell under an ice sheet and had trouble getting back up.) I am hoping that now that many more underlifter Parkers have come to light maybe the members of PGCA can help in solving many of the 11-Ga. mysteries.

With the sole exception of the almost mythical 13-Ga., the 11-Ga is possibly the rarest and most mis-understood of all the Parker gauges. Only 114 of them are listed in the Parker Story and so designated in the serialization. However it is clear that many than this number were made. Several 11 Ga. Parkers that we have identified have very low (2 or 3-digit) Serial Numbers. These are of course not included in the records. Most of the 11 Ga. Parkers that are in the records that were made before 1874 were very low grade guns. Many were Back Action and had Decarbonized Steel or Plain Twist barrels. Most of these early 11-Ga Parkers were probably just discarded when it became difficult to get shells for them and have been lost forever. The late Bill Furnish and I found that several of his guns were 11-Ga. Parkers. Several had cylindrical 0.751” diameter bores (and some were full-length tapered bores like the Poker Parker #3561 and measured approx. 0.751” as measured 9 inches from the breech). Many of these guns were listed in Stock Books as either 12-Ga or 10-Ga guns---even though they had chambers that were 0.825” to 0.830” diameter and were clearly made to use with the 11 Ga. paper (11A Brass) shotshells. For some as yet undiscovered reason, many of these 11 Ga. guns were listed as either 10 or 12 Ga. guns in the stock records. Why was this done??

I would very much like to hear from any PGCA members who have (or think you may have) an 11-Ga. Parkers. Even if you do not have a bore gauge, you should check the chambers of your Underlifter Parkers. If a modern 12-Ga. shell just rattles around in the chamber the gun should be examined more carefully. It may be an 11-Ga., unless of course already you know it is 10-Ga. I only know of fewer than 20 of the 11-Ga. Parkers. Most are from the Furnish Collection and are now in the Cody Museum. I would love to hear about any other 11-Ga Parkers that have been discovered. Also any information about the early Parkers with full length tapered bores is of great interest. It would be very nice to get pattern information on these guns for comparison with other types of chokes.


Richard B. Hoover
256-337-4082 (Cell)

Richard, Glad to see you found your way back to the world of Parkers. We spoke several times years ago and I often wondered where you had ventured of to.

Glad to have you back Richard. Art Mortvedt and I were talking about you a couple of days ago.

glad I'm not the only curious one on the 11 gauge. Was reading in my Cartridge collectors book and it mentions only 2 ,11 gauge shotguns to exist and that there was only about 240 rounds produced. So if there are that many documented shotguns then the writers are way off. Glad the frozen waters thru you back to the living. Ray

Richard, after our conversation this AM, could not help but check the Parker Story Vol 2, pg 1004 of the appendix, Show's 161 11ga guns and 131 14ga guns, again as you say on 11ga no numbers below 2000 and the same with the 14ga no numbers below 4702. Knowing that several of both gauges were made in the low ser# range, I feel that these numbers could be challenged. My 11ga is 3000 number range and my 14 is 1147 with dam brls.

I owned Rons lifter in the 3000 range and sold it to a gent in Atlanta years ago. I wonder if he still has it. This was the gun mentioned in Richards Parker Pages article on 11 gauge guns back in the early days of the PGCA.

Dave, if I remember correctly the elusive 13ga was in that ser # range too!

Richard,

Tell Art I am fine. I retired from NASA in January and now have more time for Parkers and Brittany pups.

Thanks for your post. I enjoyed seeing your beautiful Parkers while I was in Alaska a few years ago.

Richard

Ray,

There were clearly at least 200 11-Ga. Parkers produced, but many of them were chambered for 12A or 10A shotshells. Some were chambered for 11A brass shells or 11 paper shells. I have seen one of the 11A brass shells but it had no headstamp. I have never seen an 11 paper shell and would love to know if you have ever seen one or knows anyone who has one? Since there are a number of guns chambered for them, they had to have existed, but the paper shells had little chance of surviving. I suspect the 12A paper shells from the early 1870's are also rare as hens teeth.

Richard

Gary,

Thanks. I looked at the pics of your beautiful Grade 6 20 Ga. It is wonderful. I am still trying to learn how to use the system here and still do not know how to include photos. When I find out I will attach some images of the interesting for end of 3561 for you to see.

Richard

11 gauge shell I havent seen. Talked with one of my collecting friends tonight and he hadnt or didnt remember an 11 gauge shell. Two more people to ask I did pick up a 4 gauge shell from one of the guys recently so he might possibly have an 11 gauge. My search continues.

I seem to remember a Parker Pages article that pictured a headstamp on an 11 gauge shell. In all my travels I've never seen or heard of one, other than possibly that one.

Destry

Odd Gauges
 

I think we pictured both a Parker 11 headstamp and a UMC 13 headstamp on brass cases in the "Odd Gauge" discussion in PP.

Best, Austin

Good to see you back, Richard. We last talked in Spring of 2009 after your DGJ article and the possibility of gun 26459 being 11ga.

11-Ga Shell
 

Austin,

Thanks. It is great to hear from you. I have seen brass 11B shells with the Parker Headstamp. Was that an 11 or an 11B shell that was shown in the Parker Pages along with the UMC 13? If so, can you post the image? I have never seen an 11A brass or an 11-Ga paper shell with any markings, but have identified a few by their diameter. The Salmon colored Paper shell was shown in my DGJ article. I just read your article in Parker Pages with the images of several of your beautiful Parkers. It was very nice.

It is wonderful to be back among the Parker Collectors.


Yours,

Richard

Tony,

I am glad to hear from you. What did we finally decide about 26469? Was it an 11-Ga?

Richard

Richard Flanders,

I am glad to hear from you. I have tried to contact Art but to no avail. Do you know which continent he is on at the present?

tichard

With measurements I gave you, (bores .765, chokes .742 and chamber at mouth.824), I think you concluded it appeared to be one of six 11 ga. produced between 1877 and 1885. Mine was produced in 1882.

Tony

Richard, Check your private messages please.

11 Gauge Guns
 

Richard,
I posted some pics of a Parker I suspect may be an 11 gauge today. It is in the 3200 serail number range and a 12 gauge shell is too small. I don't have any 10 gauge shells to try.

11-ga Parker Pics
 

Todd,

I looked in albums but was not able to locate the pics of your possible 11-ga. Could you tell me where to find them. Also, is the gun listed as a 10, 11, or 12in the serialization and what is the grade? If it is listed as a 11 or 12, it is quite possibly an 11 and should be measured. If it is listed as a 10 it may just be a 10 bore rather than an 11.

Richard

I think this is what you are looking for.

Parker 11B Shotshells
 

Jeff,

Nope, those are the wonderful brass 11B shells. They were made by UMC and stamped with a Parker Bros. headstamp. I have yet to find an 11-bore Parker chambered for these shells. I previously neasured a perfect 12-bore Parker that was chambered for 11-B shells (and in a case with them). These shells are not right for an 11-ga Parker -- they are much too small. The Parker 11-B shells are typically 2.39" long; have rim diameter of .845" and taper from .792" at head to .788" at mouth. They are even smaller than a Parker 12A brass or modern unfired 12-ga AA shell which taper from .808" head to .790" mouth.

On the other hand, the Berdan primed UMC 11-Ga goes from .820" head to .814" mouth, which is suitable for the 0.825" diameter chambers of the 11-ga Parkers. Although the Bore Size is the crucial determining feature (0.751" 9 inch from the breech) the chambers too big for a modern 12-ga shell often give a good first clue to the 11-Ga.

I urge anyone with an early Parker lifter gun to slip a modern 12-ga shell into the chamber and see if it fits correctly or just rattles around.

If the chambers are too big, you may well have an 11-ga, even though the Parker record books may indicate it to be a 12- or a 10-bore gun. Years ago, Bill Furnish and I discovered that for some reason (as yet not understood) several Parker 11-bore guns were listed as either 10-ga or 12-ga guns in the Parker stock books and thus in the Parker Story and the Serialization as well. Very strange, indeed.

Any ideas or suggestions would be appeciated.

Richard

I have S/N 1500. a 10 gauge shell will not fit and the 12 gasuge is loose. What measurements do I need to take, to determine if it is an 11 gauge?

Phil,

Thanks for your post. I will try to help with your question.

As you know, the internal diameters of the bores are the ultimate determining factor. The bore diameter for a perfect 11-ga shotgun is 0.751". If the gun is a 12-ga, the bore is 0.729" and 0.775" for a 10 bore. A 12-bore gun with barrels that are very badly pitted or have been honed could look like an 11-bore, but pitting or honing would not alter the chambers unless they were intentionally altered to try to make a fake 11-ga gun. I have not heard of any instances of that being done. Your gun may be a 10-ga that was chambered for the 10-B brass shells, or it may be an 11-ga. The only way to answer this question is to use an internal micrometer to measure the dimensions of the bores and inspect them to make sure they have not been honed. If they are full length tapered bores, the diameter must be measured at 9" from the breech.

My measurements of the Prototype Parker S/N 06 at the Meriden Historical Society (with the help of Charlie Herzog) and several of the Bill Furnish early Parkers reveal that they were able to make their 12-ga bores precisely .729" and their 11-ga guns precisely .751" diameter from the very beginning. They were always perfectionists at Parker Bros.! I hope this helps.

Can you post some images of your Parker? Is it a Back Action Underlifter? And what are the barrels - laminated or Damascus?


Richard

Richard it is a Back Action with Decarbonized steel barrels. The barrels weigh 5lbs 2 oz and are 29" long. They appear to be uncut. I will try to get some pictures later. The bores measure .780 so they must have been honed. The rib is engraved Parker Bros Makers Meriden Conn Decabonized steel. The cambers measure abour .815

Phil,

They may not have been honed. How does the interior of the barrels look. If it has mirror bore, then I would say honing was likely, but I can not imagine why anyone would go to the trouble of honing the Decarbonized steel barrels. If the gun barrels have obvious pitting commensurate with an Early, Back Action Parker that had a fair bit of use on Ducks and Geese, then it is most probably in original state. The .780" bore diameter is a proper bore size for a 10-gauge Parker. I think the gun was most likely finished as a 10 gauge Parker and chambered for the Parker 10B brass shotshells. In the 1869 and 1872 catalogs, Parker advertises theur guns in 10- 11- and 12-Ga and they were generally sold with the Brass shells. By the way, have you checked the constrictions at the muzzle to see about the chokes?

Yours


Richard

There is a P grade lifter on Gunbroker and the frame and fore end are serial numbers 19296 Book says 10 ga. Barrels on said gun are serial numbered 10593 book says 12 ga. lifter. Called and asked exactly what ga. it was ans was told it must be a 10ga.as 12 ga. shell was too small and an old 10 would fit as a new one would not chamber. They had no way of measuring the bore and chamber. Could this be an 11??? Worth a look. I have no verted interest in this gun but thought it might have some bearing on this post. Thanks and have a great holiday. Jim

jim,

The barrels could be 11, but I suspect they are more likely 10-bore. Almost all known 11-ga Parkers have Serial numbers below 6000, but there are a few exceptions even higher than this. The only way to know for sure is to measure the bore diameters. The 10 B shells used in that time period were larger than a modern 12-ga and smaller than a modern 10-ga. Even though chambers can provide a clue in the hunt for the elusive 11-bore, the final answer can only be given by checking the bores.

Richard

Richard the bores are cylinder on both sides. No choke . That said the bores have a lot of roughness, not pitting so much inside. If they were honed they were done many years ago, I would guess. The barrels are plenty thick. A 10 gauge shell will not even start in, a 12 gauge shell will, but is loose. I should not admit it but I have shot 12 gauge shells in it just a few times to test fire. I just wrapped about 3 or 4 wraps around the base of smoe RST shell. What would be the chamber size of a 10B shell?

Phil,

I have measured the following shells:

UMC 10B Berdan Primed- Head 0..816"; Mouth 0.811" 2.98" long
UMC 11B Small Primer - Head 0.824"; 3.06" long

Although the head diameter of 0.824" is a god match for the chambers of my 11-ga#3561, they are both too long to fit in the 2.5" chambers.


I have never seen a 10B or a 10A brass or an 11Paper or 11Abrass shell with a Parker headstamp. Has anyone????

These beasts must be rarer than Unicorns. ---if they ever existed.

Yours,

Richard

10A Brass, measures 2 9/16 long

Robert,

Great. This discussion forum is wonderful!! Thanks for the rapid post and beautiful pic. Have you had the chance to measure the OD at the head and mouth of this shell? If so, please post the numbers---I am guessing that they are the same as the UMC Berdan primed 10A but would like to know for sure.

Richard
Now has anyone got a Parker or UMC 11A or an Eley #11 Paper shell? I have only seen one paper 11 and it was Salmon Color and with no head stamp.

Head measures .850, mouth .840
Several of the paper 10ga hulls I have measure .846-.850 at the head

Richard I have a UMC Bridgeport,CT marked 10A brass shell. It measures .855 large end and .843 open end.2.615 long.

As a comparison I have a Draper patent two piece 10 gauge brass shell that is unmarked. It measures .848 large end and .838 open end. 2.378 long

Dave,

The Draper patent two piece shell is short enough for these chambers, but the diameter is too large. Have you ever sen one with a head diameter arount ..820 to .825" that would fit these chambers. I am not familiar with the two piece Draper configuration. How did that shell work and can you post a photo of it? I am still hoping someone can find a shell stamped "11A" or "11".

Richard, Here are a few pictures of the Draper Patent 2 piece shell. I believe it was primed with a Berdan primer or a percussion cap. The headstamp reads Patent Nov.29th 1864 F D and Co.

Dave,

Thanks a bunch. That is one super neat shell. The nipple is similar to that of Parker #06 and is for a percussion cap. This is the W. H. Wills of Boston and it is patent No. 45,292 dated Nov, 29, 1864. Wills describes it as being useful because of the "objection to that class of firearms in which a metallic cartridge is employed arises from the difficulty in obtaining these cartridges in wild and unsettled portions of the country." He also remarks that these metallic cartridges are quite expensive and "on account oh their weight and bulk, are inconvenieNt to transport from place to place." The sportsman then needs only carry to cartridges and his supply of powder, shot and percussion caps.

If you wish, I can digitize the patent and send the two images to you. It is only one pg of drawings and 1 pg. of text. Perhaps you could then post it if you think there are others that might be interested. I do not yet know what I must do to upload pictures to this site.

Yours,

Richard

Richard you can send the patent to me at ctdoubles@aol and I will post it here.

Here ya go..