HEVI-METAL verses HEVI-SHOT
 

I am planning on doing a lot more duck hunting next year and started researching non-toxic shot. Seems to be a huge difference in price between HEVI-METAL and HEVI-SHOT. Can someone tell me what the diffence is?
Thanks Phil

Hevi-Metal is half Hevi Shot and half steel shot. Honestly, I've never tried it because it seems to mix two types of shot with different densities. That said, at some point, you'll have shot going at two different speeds to my way of thinking. I am a big fan of straight Hevi-Shot ammo. It doesn't cripple, it kills.

If I had to pick one non-tox that I've tried and which seems to work the best it would be Kent Tungsten Matrix. I've done well with the Classic Doubles stuff also. Bismuth is ok, but a bit brittle. Steel sucks and should be outlawed to put it mildly.

Thanks for the information. Of course you are right. Shells gernerally are the least expensive item on the hunt. In January I took some people out hunting Gamble quail. I asked them to buy some good quaity shells in 6 or 7 1/2 's and I would supply everything else. I went on to explain there as a fair number of birds where we were going to be hunting but the birds were jumpy late in the season. Since we would be hunting just one day I told them they only needed about 4 or 5 boxes of shells between the 4 of them and they would have shells left over. The next day they showed up with 2 100 packs of #8's from Walmart. Said that they had decided that since the shells were such a great deal they bought double the amount, that I had told them they needed. They saved 3 to 4 dollars a box. Though they had to settle for number 8's. We ended up getting into a lot of birds but lost more birds then I care to talk about. I will not find myself in that situation again.
I shot Bismuth this year, jumpy shooting ducks off of the desert tanks, and was happy with the results, also shot some steel out of my Benelli. Did not like shooting the steel. No comaprison. I'll try buying up some Hevi-Shot for next year, or give the Tungsten Matrix a try.

Phil

Used Hevi-Steel this year ( in SBE not a Parker) and was very pleased with the results. Performed well with Kicks High Flyer (full) extended choke.

ok all you duck and goose hunters help us out here.... charlie

I can't help much here as I've never shot any composite loads. I can say this, on a recent trip to North Dakota in search of Ducks, I had a Beretta auto-loader that I fed steel shot, and an Elsie SXS that was fed Heavy Shot Classic Double ammo. The Beretta was along for venues where we had to wade/swim to our shooting spots, and sometimes the gun was completely submerged! The Elsie was used for lay-out blind field hunts and hunts from shorelines.
As expensive as the heavy shot ammo was, I do honestly believe that it killed enough duck on the first shot to at least break even with the cost of the steel shot. Absolutely no comparison! Both guns were comparatively choked, given the recommendations for steel shot, and ducks that took two shots at 40 yards with steel were dish-ragged with one Heavy Shot shell. Shots that I would have passed on with steel shot, came to the table with Heavy Shot.
Maybe it was just me.
John

I doubt it's completely you John. What myself and my duck hunting partners most dislike about steel shot is the number of cripples that we never recover. I finally sold all my steel shot for a song and got rid of any guns I had that I could shoot steel through. It's all Parkers now and I'll pay whatever it takes to shoot them. Life's too short to shoot an ugly gun....

Steel does suck. I've been hunting waterfowl here on the fabled Chesapeake Bay since the early 60's. Back in the good old days with lead you very rarely chased cripples. When the pinheads in DC mandated the use of steel I almost gave up waterfowling due to the horrible performance of the early steel loads. No one will ever convince me that steel shot saves birds. I became an outlaw for a few years, still shooting my old lead loads but always having some steel loads in my pocket in case the "man" would check us. Then Bismuth came along and it was better than steel but not without its limitations. I'd say that about 80% of my birds are shot at 45yds. or less in that I spend considerable effort in decoys and calling to get the birds to lock up and glide in. I shoot a number of Parkers, Foxes and just recently a M12 from 1940 and for my money nothing beats the Tungsten Matrix loads. I agree that steel should be banned. These ammo companies are selling these new fast steel loads that chrono at 1400-1700fps. They are no better than the crap they were selling in the early 80's. Most waterfowlers are horrible judges of distance and they tend to stretch their shots to 60+ yds. We call them skybusters here and they cripple birds. Makes me sick. Buy the best loads- the birds deserve it.

Correction I used Hevi Metal loads and had very few cripples.

I speak only from my experience. My experience is precisely the same as Richard Flanders. I only hunt with guys who use steel because I'm a tolerant man, just as I keep my mouth shut when old men chew tobacco. Both are disgusting habits. Makes no difference if the ejecta comes from guns or mouths.

seems like most of you fellas that hunt water fowl dont like steel shot....what size shot in steel did you fellas use on ducks and geese when yall used the steel shot...and what gauge gun did yall use the steel shot in plus what was the lenth of hulls used...im just wondering ive never shot steel or any of the other new loads... charlie

#4 High velocity 2 3/4". Birds are only shot over decoys. Nothing longer than 35 yards

I picked up some hevi metal last year but thought it was just a gimmick. Kind of ignored it but then figured I would shoot it up toward the end of this season. Whodathunk that every duck I hit went dead with one shot - whistlers, puddle ducks, and sea ducks. I was impressed and will go with a case this year.
That said I also shoot some older Remington hevinshot , buying up what I can still find,and it is very lethal. I find few pellets in the birds they are going right through the cavity some times. Also shoot the hevinshot shot brand and it is also a go to ammo for hitting power.
Thanks

Last November in SD I used steel on a couple of walk on areas that required notox. I had a box of Federal Roman Candle 1&1/2oz #3s that I had bought on a close out that I used in that case in my SBE. Five birds killed out of six rounds; none less than 35yds, some a little longer. Where lead was ok, I used my Trojan 16 and brought in a lot of birds, but I don't think my bird/shell ratio was any better,or as good.

Hevi metal is snake oil. They had to have something cheaper to compete with steel since ammo has gone up so much in the past few years. Yes, it is better then steel only but no way better then Hevi shot only. Hevi shot kills them dead and at longer distances end of story. With that said, I started to use Black Cloud. Hits better then straight steel but still doesn't perform well at longer distances. I can't afford to use Hevi shot.

Ray

Hevi metal is snake oil. They had to have something cheaper to compete with steel since ammo has gone up so much in the past few years. Yes, it is better then steel only but no way better then Hevi shot only. Hevi shot kills them dead and at longer distances end of story. With that said, I started to use Black Cloud. Hits better then straight steel but still doesn't perform well at longer distances. I can't afford to use Hevi shot.

Ray

I too have used a bunch of Black Cloud and as long as you don't push it too far it is lethal. When dressing ducks shot with it it sometimes looks like they were hit with a 22 when they take one of those Saturn shaped pellets. Hevinshot shot is outstanding. It is expensive but if you do the math of one shot per most ducks and two shots with steel for most ducks the numbers actually do move in your favor. I pick up a box here and there in the off season so usually there is always some in the boat.

I don't think that math is correct. If you use 12 ga 3 1/2 shells, Black Cloud is $28 for box of 25 and Hevi Shot is $45 for box of 10. That's about one dollar per shell vs $4.50 per shell. The good news today is that Cabelas has Hevi Shot on sale for $29 per box and I think you can still get a small rebate from Hevi Shot for a box or two. Still too much money for me to spend on ducks but anyone who wants to stock up for next year might want to go to Cabelas website and buy a case. It's a good deal.

If price is no object, you may also consider the waterfowl loads made by Nitro Ammunition in Mo. I use their turkey loads and they are by far the best. I'm sure their ducks loads are just as good.

Ray

I've gotta say, if you say steel sucks then you've not shot much of the high tech modern stuff. It's not lead, that's for sure, but it's certainly not the early 80's crap that gave it such a bad name. I'm the only vintage style gunner in my local crowd and all the other boys still seem to have a nice bag of birds at the end of the day, all shooting steel. Where it loses a lot of it's juice is in a high wind, because it's so much lighter than lead or the other non-toxic stuff. But on a normal day, at reasonable range, the modern steel will kill.

That being said, if you're shooting a vintage gun, then the Kent TM is the way to go. It's the best by far of all the factory stuff. If you want loads for damascus guns then get with the boys at RST, they make the best sort of thing for that kind of work.


Destry

Used 12 ga 3" #3's on ducks and 3" BB's on geese, both Hevi Metal. Scott...

Charlie: I shot everything between T and #4 and didn't like any of it, but it was nothing like the new and faster steel Destry refers to. Only gun I have now that will digest steel is an Ithaca mod 37 fwt pump and I'm not about to punish myself putting heavy loads through that, except out of necessity when Mr. Bear decides I look like a Big Mac with legs....

scott looks like you fellas had a great shoot....really good photo....nothing like a hunt with friends and it be a great hunt..this is what memories are made of ......... richard thanks for the info...i guess when it comes down to it its gonna be hard to beat lead but since its been banned on waterfowl all of us will have to shoot what we thinks best for us....boy i betcha that light weight ithaca would hurt afellow shooting those super fast steel loads.... charlie

I don't intend to ever find out Charlie.

aw come on.... charlie

I have some ITX from new era that I have yet to shoot for my G grade duck gun. Any comments on its effectiveness?
Thank

Well I broke down an bought a case of HEVI SHOT and 1 Box of HEVI METAL from Cabelas. I bought the case of 2 3/4 1 1/4 oz loads for $229.00. Hevi Shot has a $50.00 a case rebate on their web site. Cabelas was running a special to ship any purchase over $99.00 for a flat fee of $5.00. So for 184.00 I bought a case of 100 shells. I purchased a box of HEVI Metal 10 gauge 3 1/2 inch shells to try them out also. Would have bought come Tunsten P but they were all out. Thanks for all of the great feed back.

If you mean Federal Tungsten Polymer, then you'll find that everybody is out. They've not produced it in about 5 years.

Destry

Destry, yes Tungsten Polymer. Spelling has never been my strong card. I always found I had the gifted ability to mis-spell a word 2 or 3 ways. I did find Cabelas has some 16 gauge shells.
Destry we need to plan another trip out this way. I turned 55 today, and will retire tomorrow. Should have a little more time to hunt this coming year.

phil hate to tell you but when you retire it seems youve got more work todo than before you retired.... you never seem to get anything done....but some way or another a fellow seems tobe able to take off a hunting now and then....good luck on the retirement and keep shootin them old parkers..... charlie

ps happy birthday PHIL.... CHARLIE

Thanks Charlie,

Good thing hunting season is all over. I will try to get some of those things done I have been putting off before dove season starts September 1. Of course there is always Predator hunting I can do between now and then...... Oh Spring turkey hunting also......

Steel
 

I feel a little obligated to add my two cents.
Lead IS a long range load but a slice of history past. Even in the pre lead ban days there was a range that was "out of range".
I agree with Desrty that "within range" steel works fine. The effective range IS shorter but it patterns well. The newer non toxic loads do add a little more range, but they also have a limit.
The key here is to learn effective range and respect it.
In my opinion, a fast load of #3 steel for ducks in my Parker Reproduction at reasonable ranges works just fine.
Steve Kleist Ely, MN

I grew up with lead, went to steel when forced to, researched it, loaded it, and ended up with 1-5/8 -1's or B's in my 10 ga o/u. That said I never liked it, just had too many cripples.
Then I started using 1-3/8 bismuth #4's or tungsten polymer #5' in 12 ga. and have never seen any reason to go back to steel. My son has switched to heavy tungsten (ok in his newer Beretta) and really likes it. I really worry that someday 'They' will force us to use nontoxic on upland birds.
Interesting side note, this year for the first time ever, I had a DOW guy ask to see my shells.
C.G.B.

Phil, at 80 I'm still working in the wage economy but "retired" in a sense all my life. You're not living if you're not having fun. Make time for the important things.

Destry does that on a scale we all admire, happily on right side of the grass.

My cousin, a fanatic salmon angler, made time off when the fish were running as a term of his employment. Either way, family first and then fun.

Regards, King

I hate to hijack my own thread but, Tomorrow is my first day of retirement and I promised myself to enjoy the simple things in life even more. My 1st day of retirement will be bitter sweet. One of my hunting partners for the past 14 years, " Jules" has taken a turn for the worst. I have tried to do my best to keep her going but last night she went downhill fast. She is resting in my bedroom on her bed by the gun safe where she has slept the better part of the last 14 years. I brought in the bird vest and laid it by her seems to bring us both a little comfort. I now just need to courage to do the right thing and take her to the vet for the last time in the morning. I thought I would share a few pictures of the good times we spent together, along with her daughter I lost last year at the age of 11.



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Sorry. Take solace in that you've been a good companion, Phil. When my last Lab died, I said no more, that's enough, can't do it anymore. A few months later my daughter phoned to say that I should meet my son, a corporate pilot, at the airport. On a sunny day, the Falcon 50 taxied to the ramp, the engines spooled down, the stairs came out, I looked at the darkened doorway, and out walked the three-month black Lab I have today, 8 1/2 years old, so he'll probably outlast me. Jake walked down the stairs to 30 metres off the ramp to have a pee. My son said, "We knew you couldn't live without a dog."

i feel for you this day...remember the good times.... charlie

Phil, I am so sorry to hear about Jules. Although pets are not human they are definitely useful family members. I have had two dogs die in my arms and I sobbed over both of them. Both lasted an incredible 17 years and brought more joy and laughter into the house than I had a right to expect. I haven't replaced them yet but would like to when accommodations permit. I am sure all members of the forum know what you are feeling.

Dennis

Phil, I am sorry for your loss. I understand completely.