parker collection for sale
 

Just saw on shotgunworld that a guy has put his parker collection for sale on guns america. Name is Ed Good. Dont know the man, but I thought some of you might be interested.

:corn:

Look in the for sale section here.

He can't--not a PGCA member.

Wonder how many have been hit with that low heat torch....:shock::rotf:

There isn't a rule against dealers advertising in the classifieds here. At least I haven't seen it.

And one of the two barrel sets has been case colored by some unspecified method.

Best,

Mike

I read a few of the ads. Seems some of the barrels are not orginal.

Surprise, Surprise, Surprise.......:rotf:

Sorry I just couldn't resist.....:corn: And JD if you want to edit I understand.:rotf: Eric

Sorry if I did something wrong. Dont know the man had never seen the guns. Just posted it, so people could look if interested. Sorry again. Hope to get membership soon, have to set up paypal.

No worries at all..!

And nope - you don't need a PayPal account to join on-line.. See this post:

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showpos...49&postcount=6

Best to you..!

John

Thanks, just wanted to bring to everyones attention. Should have looked first, can fit in a thimble what I know about Parkers but Im learnin.

Hi Tom,

No problem at all - I only know slightly more than you, anyway. But, I post, read - ask questions - and it's slowly sinking in.. ;)

My Best to you,

John

And - by the way - WELCOME as our newest PGCA Member, Tom!!! I iust got your Membership Payment - and the servers click your account over as a PGCA Member.......

Many thanks again - and welcome, Tom!

:cheers:

John

what can i say? except:

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

A GH is advertised as re-case colored, but looks to me more like temper colors from heating. Does anyone see bone charcoal case colors on that frame or know who did the coloring work and how it was done?

justin: as i recall, only one of the parkers i currently have listed on gunsamerica has had its receiver recolored. what specific guns are you referring too? ed

Ed,
Thanks for correcting me. I edited my post accordingly. I was referring to the GH in particular and wondering what process is utilized to obtain that color pattern, if anyone knows.

justin: the particular gh that you are referring to had it's receiver recolored by ed lander, an old time gunsmith here in nh. old ed has been a full time general gunsmith since he came home from service in ww2, in 1946! imagine having the services of a gunsmith with over 60 years of experience! we in northern new england are lucky to still have him around to work on our guns.

anyway, he uses a low heat chemical process to recolor shotgun receivers. he uses different chemicals to simulate different factory receiver coloring, depending on the brand and age of the gun. for example, i have a late ithaca 20 ga nid, that old ed also recolored the receiver. it is very well done and is close to ithaca factory work of the period.

unlike the high heat bone charcoal process of recoloring shotgun receivers, old ed never heats a shotgun receiver hot enough to reach critical temperature and thus altering the original factory heat treatment of the receiver metal. keeping the heat below critical temperature avoids the well known problems associated with after market re heat treating of shotgun receivers.

:rotf::eek::biglaugh::banghead::crying::cuss::nono ::nono:

Did I forget any.....:corn:
:dh:

day: i do not know nor care for the purpose of your post. that kind of nonsense may be tolerated elsewhere, but not here. do it again and i will report you to the board.

Be my guest if you want I will send JD a message myself reporting my post. What you do to guns should be illegal... :cuss: Oh and my name is Eric just so people don't think you are talking about Bruce.

eric: i do no gun work of any kind. and i do not want to get into a pissing contest with you or anybody else on this forum. this is not the place for that.

Then don't post about a Master gunsmith that destroys guns. Give up the BS about low heat (torch) case coloring process you have been called up on it before on other forums and as you say "This is not the place for that"

I just looked at the firearm in question, and the asking price. I have also seen the over priced guns on Gun Broker. The price of the firearm in question appears to be more than reasonable considering its condition. I personally prefer the worn patina on the receiver of my GH, although I will have the barrels refinished at some time in the future. That is my preference. I also have to remember that Parker did not for the most part make shotguns for collectors (presentation guns excepted) but as tools for hunting or target shooting. If someone does not like the condition of a gun then don't by it.

Carl if an action that has been case hardened is heated above a certain temperature it can undo the case hardening rendering the action bendable instead of springy. When an action has been case colored I always wonder if the guy that did the coloring knew what he was doing. Raimey over on the Doublegun BBS put it well:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/...rue#Post239520



ed I don't think you have the authority to speak for this entire BBS. That is I don't think you have the authority to dictate what is and isn't tolerated here. Please feel free to report my post to the BOD along with Eric's. Usually, at this point in our disagreements, you ask me if I have heard from Dave. As I know you have a keen interest in my relationship with Dave I thought I would save you the trouble of inquiring and let you know: Still no word from Dave.

Best,

Mike

Hey guys??.

For a moment - I had to double check who was posting what about whatever... And at my age, I confuse easily.....

Anyway - let's keep the personal "barbs" to a minimum. In fact - let's just leave them at the doorstep, OK? Out of this topic at hand - there are several great threads that could be spawned - so let's stick to those...

My thanks and best to all....

And now - I'm back in "lurk mode"...

;)

John

I was reading the thread posted by Mike....must admit that I was completely shocked to see these entries that are pasted below. While I'm as much in favor of free market capitalism as the next man, I do have to wonder why anyone who views vintage doubles as mere widgets for profit would want to be a PGCA member?

jrb: cept win yo heirs gives em to me or sumbody else to sell. then, we gotta fix erm, enhance erm and make erm look purdy, sos to get de maximum bucks out of erm...cause dats watt dey wants...





Edited by ed good (08/17/11 03:10 PM)

rhd: i been sellin used guns for fun and profit for about 30 years now. during that time i have learned among other things, what sells and what does not sell. and also, who pays retail and who does not. i do what i do based on what works and does not work. my primary goal is to maximize sale prices in a given environment. i never continue a practice that conflicts with my primary goal.

once a gun reaches my hands, it's about money...


Edited by ed good (08/17/11 03:23 PM

Ed, I'm sure that 'old ed' is a good guy to have when you need something fixed, and it's nice to know there are still some old-timers around, but I think he has either not explained his process to you, you've perhaps misunderstood him, or, he's doing little to no good to guns he performs this 'low heat' process on.
Steels, whatever their specific metallurgy, have 2 critical temperatures, logically referred to as the lower and upper critical temperatures. The temperature necessary to carburize, which is what case-hardening is, is above the upper critical temperature (roughly 1650 F for .20C steels) Yes, this is a temp, if in the hands of an inexperienced person, will cause warpage, but it is necessary to to get the contained carbon into solution, and add carbon from the packing material. The skill comes in packing, to avoid deformation, and quenching, or rapid cooling from the normalizing temperature to retain the grain structure. The mechanical properties are not in a usable form; even though the UTS(ultimate tensile strength) is high, yield strength will be so close to UTS, that the other two properties, Elongation, and reduction of area, are nearly non existant. Read "Brittle".
a single, or often necessary, a double temper treatment is necessary for maximum, over all, physical properties. This involves raising the parts again, above the Lower critical temp, but well below the upper critical temps.
Whether 'old ed' is taking his parts above the lower critical temps to get these colors, often from 'quenching in oil' I can't say, but any subsequent heating risks simply annealing to a near dead soft condition. I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting to more than just 'simulate' colors of a proper heat treatment, and have it done properly. There are several good craftsmen doing excellent work. What may differentiate them to many is the resulting colors, but these guys wouldn't risk hard earned reputation simple to 'simulate' proper work.

edger: your post is interesting. what is a typical lower critical temperature for shotgun receivers of pre ww2 vintage?

you are correct, i do not know the particulars of old ed's recoloring process. what i do know is that i have sold dozens guns over the years that have had their receivers re colored by old ed...i have yet to hear of one that failed and i have yet to have a complaint from one of my customers regarding old ed's work. so what ever he is doing, he is not damaging guns and people who own guns that he has worked on like his work or they would not buy the ones i have for sale.

also, rereading your post reminded me of a conversation i had with old ed years ago. you both said essentially the same thing. in addition, as i recall, old ed's problem with the use of the high heat bone charcoal process re shotgun receivers, relates to the inconsistency of shotgun receiver metallurgy and the lack of available information regarding various manufacturers original factory heat treating specifications...so anyone, attempting to duplicate factory heat treating is going by trial and error or are just guessing and hoping for the best outcome.

the trade off here is do you run the risk of damaging the receiver beyond salvage by re heat treating the metal? or do you play it safe and just re color the receiver without changing the original factory heat treating and case hardening? i prefer to play it safe.

A friend bought a Birmingham single shot hammer gun. It was loose. He sent it to David Yale to be tightened: three times. David finally figured out that the case hardening had been undone and that the action was soft and bending. David didn't charge him anything for the additional work and refunded his previous payments. But my friend has been collecting doubles for thirty years and shot and collected old muzzleloaders before that. David Yale is an experienced gunsmith. It took these two experienced gun men quite awhile to figure out what was going on. It kept going loose. The bending of the softened action was hard to detect.

I repeat; When I see a gun that has been case colored I always wonder if the guy that did it knew what he was doing.

I think the safest thing to do is to not harden or color.


Best,

Mike

"I think the safest thing to do is to not harden or color."

mike: we can agree on that. ed

"When I see a gun that has been case colored I always wonder if the guy that did it knew what he was doing."

we can agree on that too!

Having followed the circus that is Ed Good over on DoubleGunShop, I can't wait to see how all this turns out here in the Parker World.

DLH

hunter: hopefully the monkeys and baboons will not find their way here...

speaking of the circus, have you seen the recent movie "water for elephants" ?

a very well done flick about life in a real circus in the 1930's.

Mr. Hoffard, I don't know why you are confused about the outcome "over here". Only a couple of months ago, a nameless individual was temporarily banned from this site for threatening another member with a frivolous report to the ATF with intent to injure the other member. He was allowed back on the forum, apparently with the promise to behave. Keep your nose to the ground to see whether he adheres to his probationary conditions. Oddly, you and I are in good standing "over here".

Mr. Murphy,

I didn't know he had been allowed back on the forum. I'm disappointed to hear that. Of all our posters here, there were only three I dreaded to see write in and he was one.

DLH

Yep, they got up a pool over on the Doublegun BBS and bought him a PGCA Lifetime Membership so they would let him back on here so he wouldn't post so much there. The pool was over-subscribed.

Best,

Mike

Just kidding.

murphy, market and mike: i fail to see what your recent posts have to do with parker shotguns? maybe youse guys could explain this to us...

Why nothing.

But if you think we are referring to you in the last three posts we weren't.

Best,

Mike

Ed you forgot most of the people on the Double Gun are members here.. The problem is when you post about "low heat case coloring (ie. torch) on this board, we have alot of newbees that don't understand what you or Ed Landers are doing to these guns:eek: So again please call John D or Jeff K (to kick me off this board) or if you want ask me, to call them and I will, what you or Ed L does to guns should be criminal... and I want all of the new people to know that ... (the others already know).

Questions....?

Ed, I couldn't speak to any particular range of normalizing, tempering or annealing of receivers of any particular period of manufacture. Speaking in more general terms though, any particular heat treatment is a function of the base metal chemistry. Given that a heat treat shop knows the chemistry, very little in times and temps has changed.
Most all quality firearm receivers are milled from forged steel blanks. These forgings, prior to mechanical process to achieve their near-net shape, were born from molten metal, a media I am intimately familiar. For my last 25 years of my working career, I owned and ran a pretty sophisticated steel foundry. When I was a youngster, the company operated a "wet" analytical laboratory, for material analysis. The drawback of the "old process" was that you were performing an analysis that took hours, and well after the furnace had poured to the 4000-15,000 pound ladles, and the castings were poured, and cooling.
It was only by past proven 'recipes' and known chemistries of raw materials, that specs were met, or, within the range of the given PO specifications (ASTM, ASME, ANSI or Mil-S-xxxxx) As growth permitted, the company changed to Spectrometer analysis, both x-ray flourescent and vacuum/optical emission. This allowed the melting department to know exactly what to add (or boil off with liquid oxygen) to hit an exact chemistry.
This information was what the heat treat department needed to know precisely what times, temps and quench/cool down methods were necessary.
Even the old gun-makers had the tools (chemistry of the forged blanks) because the steel mills supplied chemistry since early steel makiing started. What made it more difficult was the lack of consistency through time. it was essential the heat treatment departments knew exactly, the tracability of the given blanks to the analysies supplied. Traceability is the major function of QC departments everywhere.
As an aside, Ruger, in Newport, up your way, is one of the only present day gunmakers who produces all their receivers from (investment) castings, not forgings.
Mike, That old SS frame cold still be saved. The HIP process, not one which many but specialty firms perform, is the Hot Isostatic Press process, where casings and forgings are put under, are you ready(?) up to a half million PSI. Apart from the obvious compression, grain structures of incredible fineness are achieved. I don't know how badly it was stretched, but good cut/TIG weld procedures can do alot. Also the hardness could be tested in a nearly non destructive way using either Rockwell, or micro-braille hardness testers.
FWIW, I don't agree that the "best" coarse is to not re-case. It has to be determined on a gun by gun decision. If the end result is a near-new restoration, the value (sentimental or monetary) of the end result has to justify the expense invested, and you don't go to the corner store for prime rib when the best butcher is just down the road.
Jeez, I miss my job.