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Mark,
Though I do not have a ton of experience to comment on this, I will share jut a few observations. We know it is an upgrade, so that is not in question. But just a few things about the work. The upgraded grade stamps on the watertable are larger than the original serial number stamping, which I would think to be incorrect. The cross-hatched finish on the water table is also sub-par. I have seen this finish treatment on an original parker and it is of much higher quality than this one. The hatching is not even or uniform, wheras original Parker would have been perfect or darn near it. Also, not only does the top rib lettering look off, but do does the pattern on the rip itself. Looks very inconsistent and just plain off around the lettering. |
Interesting? This is what I can tell you based on comparison to my AHs of the 1890s.
The frame sides is typical of late 1890s AH. I say this because the scroll work is not as fine as engraving of early 1890s and more like my 1898 AH. What is not typical of the period in the chain link boarder on the frame sides. They are more like a C grades engraving. The AH had a scroll boarder. I don't believe this was done at Remington because I have never seen a later Parker or Rem Parker with this style engraving. It was done, IMHO, earlier at Parker or by an engraving who really understood how Parker originally did it. The checkering is typical of early 1890s. After 1895 or so the checkering on butt became more elaborate. I'm impressed that the panel has the beveled edge typical of the early AHs. Later there was no bevel at times and the panel boarder was much wider. If you had only showed me the butt, I'd say it was from an AH or BH made prior to 1895. The barrel is obviously not 1891 but is probably a Parker upgrade. Engaging on TG is not typical AH of 1891. The four I have of 1890-1 all have dogs. Looks like C grade engraving to me. Fences also not typical AH engraving which usually has birds. Again looks like C grade. With all that said, I'd get a letter. You might find it is an AH. It's not completely typical but it doesn't mean it's not an AH. No way I think it's a Rem upgrade. Take this for what it's worth from someone who is far from an expert. But I have seen my share of 1890s AHs. I would really be interested in what a letter might say. Best, Ray PS Mr Dudley's observations about the water table are right on when compared to my guns. |
The only part of your Parker that I would consider to be not original parker are the barrels... likely to be Belgian replacements for the original Damascus barrels. I have seen several Belgian replacement barrels with ribs and breech wedges done in the same manner. The rest of it, aside from the cyanide colors, looks to be original early AH to me. I wouldn't put much stock in the size of the grade number and letter on the water table being of a different size... it all looks like Parker Bros work to me, excepting those items I've already pointed out.
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What does the PGCA letter say?
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I have to agree with Ray. Looks a lot like the work on several of my C grades.Nice gun that I would be happy to own it if it was priced right. Enjoy it for what it is
David |
Gentlemen,
Thank you for your evaluations. Dean, The barrels have the purple hue of nickel steel barrels so we know they are not Parker originals. Bill, I ordered a letter on my AH and the Research Committee was kind enough to inform me that both references listed the gun as a Grade 2. I was asked if I still wanted a letter and I elected to shift the $40 fee to letter another gun. So, the LC Smith association discusses "Lunch Box Specials" that workers built and often upgraded on their own. Has anyone seen any Parkers like that? Or, with the Parker engraving and cyanide case hardening could this be a DelGrego upgrade? Mark |
Gents,
I just got smacked across the head by Captain Obvious! I hate it when he does that... The clear-eyed Captain informed me that the chain engraving on the barrels matches that of the action and the top lever. Mark |
Well whoever did it did a heck of a job on the engraving to make it look correct
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i think maybe youll always wonder what you have..one thing that is for sure its a very nice gun... charlie
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Grade 4 Parkers did not have the bead around the fences and the two dogs on the sides began with Grade 5 and 6 Parkers. Any engraver worth his salt can match engraving on non-original barrels to match the engraving on other parts of the gun. In my opinion, if it is an upgrade of an original Grade 2, it was done either at Meriden or by an engraver contracted by Parker Bros... and in my opinion it was not an upgrade done by DelGrego as Robert Runge, although he did some marvelous work, did not do that gun - that's just not his style and an engraver can't entirely work in a different style without leaving some kind of clue.
Incidentally, I'll retract the statement I made earlier about the colors being cyanide colors... on that issue I'm not so sure of. |
Dean I may be confused but just went and pulled my C H out and the fences do have the bead as in the picture.
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At it's very least, it's a Parker, and a very beautiful gun at that. Unless I bought it from someone representing it as an original AH, I wouldn't be the least bit ashamed to own it and enjoy it. Whether the actual work to it in it's present form was done under the Parker roof or not, I couldn't speculate, but it certainly appears to have been done by someone intimately familiar with the style of guns from the company.
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I would sure like to see the the PGCA Letter on it.
Best, Mike |
Quote:
The "bead" I refer to is the raised rib or bead around the perimeter of the breech balls. This was done only on Grade 5 (B) and above Parkers. |
David,
Thanks for the compliment about this gun! I aquired it from a friend as what it is, a GH upgraded to AH with purple barrels and a few other bugs. It had the safety removed and the slot filled in. Before even shooting it I sent it to Bachelder's to reinstall the safety mechanism. Anyway, I bought it "right" from a local friend from whom I've bought other guns. On three pheasant hunts this year this little AH upgrade has proven to me to be a 90% one-shot gun. I guess it likes it's new home in my safe surrounded by Parkers and other SxS's for it has paid me back with memorable days afield! Mike, I had thought the same. Get the letter! But, as I replied to Bill, the Research Committee advised me that the gun is listed as a GH in both of the references available to them. This was a professional curtesy extended to me as "good customer" of letters. My request for the was that of a batch of four letters. I opted not to waste $40 to learn my gun was a GH (as I already knew) and ordered by a hardware store. If there was any chance of learning more I would indeed pay for the priviledge. Thanks, Mark |
If this was a upgrade by Parker, I would think the letter would confirm. Its worth the 40 bucks to find out in my opinion. I have a question: did Parker even do this type of upgrade? I suppose they'd do whatever a customer wanted but why not just buy an AH if that's what you wanted?
I agree with Dean that it's not a Remington or later upgrade. The style is much earlier. One thing that makes me think it was not a Parker upgrade is ( assuming it was originally a GH) that Parker would not have changed the grade on the watertable. It would have just done the upgrade and reflected that in it's records. But you never know I guess. Is it possible that the gun was returned for some reason, ie in trade, and Parker had an order for an AH and used it to fill the order? speculation on my part but a letter might answer many questions so I'd get one. Best, Ray |
As Mark states, beyond what the PGCA researcher has told him about this AH there is no other information so it is a dead end and all of our opinions are merely speculation.
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Ray,
Don't I wish a letter would an upgrade! The research letter will tell of it's original configuration and perhaps what person or in the case of a simple GH, what store ordered it. A later upgrade would be on the repair record book for which none is listed for this gun. I ponder your second question of would Parker do an upgrade such as this? The wood is correct and the receiver engraving looks like that of a Parker engraver but with some C Grade art mixed in with the AH engraving. Returned in trade and then upgraded? Maybe. I once owned a documented Remington era Parker Skeet gun for which the receiver was made as a Parker Bros VHE but sold as a GHE. This is part of the research from the PGCA. Since I sold the gun I x'ed out the serial number. "We Found It" I received a research letter request on serial number 238xxx in February and it looked like a routine letter request. We had a stock book entry and a Remington IBM card. I checked the IBM card first and found a OBE 12 gauge with a single trigger and 26 inch barrels ordered by Abercrombie and Fitch on February 7, 1936. I then pulled the stock book and found the gun was completed in December 1935 or two months prior to the order being received. It is listed in stock book 82 as a VBE 12 gauge with a single trigger and 26 inch barrels. There has been much speculation on whether Remington upgraded guns to higher grades. Austin has found examples of Remington converting existing guns in inventory to skeet guns. We now have an example of a VHE being upgraded to a higher grade. --- Okay, I'm going to call the attention of our researcher to this thread. Ray, thanks fo much for sharing your thoughts! Mark |
Ahah!! I was going through my album of pictures and found an old one of this gun so now I know where you got it. I guess we'll never know the history of this one. Anything that could have been learned about it would certainly have come to light by now.
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Dean , Was the bead on all the grade 5 and up ? I was looking at the picture on the Ah grades on the sight on the home page under grades and there is one of a gun that does not have the bead maybe there but I cant see it
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The single bead is is the standard for the Grade 5 and 6 guns and the double bead is the standard for Grade 7. The Grade 8 normally has three beads.
I have seen some Grade 5 and up Parkers with no bead at all. Examples of these guns both with and without beads can be seen in The Parker Story. |
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