What if??
 

What if this was a Trojan? What would be the price?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=256462102

I don't know, but the pink flowers in the background!!!! Somehow, that does NOT inspire me to buy the gun!!!

EDM's mint Trojan 12 sold at auction for about $11,000. Don't believe it had a box and don't believe the chokes on the tag matched the chokes in the gun. A brand new boxed Trojan 20 should sell for near $20,000, especially if it is an early gun.

Ahhh... Another one of those A**holes that like to put other names in their auction titles to try and generate hits.
I actually say this one the other day that made it into my "Parker" search listings.

I think the question might be "What if this were a VH grade?" The Elsie Field grade would correspond to a VH or an A.H. Fox A not a Trojan.

Take a closer look Lads-
 

Crappy wood to metal fit with "burrs" at both the forearm iron shoe and also around the locks- left barrel firing pin looks, to my eyes anyway, to be slightly larger in OD than that of the right barrel firing pin. You can't kill birds with the box or hang tags either- and the case colors- huumm--

Just curious- what model Elsie would have corresponded to either the Parker Trojan or the AH Fox Sterlingworth- Possibly the _not a real LC Smith Fulton boxlock?

Yes, the pink flowers-- maybe this was staged to appeal to the Elton John/Freddie Mercury sector of the shotgun collectors market. Even Limey guitar slinger and wife stealer Eric Clapton dabbled in double guns!! Strange world--

Amen to that Stephen--
 

This "dude" may have hit 36 for 36- but the pink floral motif spells "Pansy" to this old Jarhead!!

Quien Sabes, Amigo mio!!
 

Quizas el vendatador es un borachon? Pues ser!!!

I have personally examined this gun and it is the real deal. If you question anything about the gun I am sure the owner who is a PGCA member will clarify with additional pictures (without the poseys if you like) or information. If you actually question the original LC case colors then I think you should really do some more homework.... And the seller really isn't an A**hole as stated
JJV.

I’m the 36 for 36 pink flower loving A**hole that owns this gun. If someone would rather see the pictures on a burlap bag, I can accommodate that request. This gun is guaranteed 100% brand new in the box, unassembled, and unfired, the way it left the LC Smith factory. If anyone questions the original finish of this gun, they need to have their eyes examined. Most old welders I know can’t see very well either.

If you'd like to discuss one-on-one, email me at tspollock@verizon.net.

"Welder's eyes" a curse of the trade
 

I'm one of the "lucky ones' after many years in the trade- boiler, pressure vessel, pipeline- SMAW, TIG and MIG- all positions, even the "Arkansas Bell hole" I still have 20-15 distance vision in my right eye, and 20-20 distance in the left- with perfect depth perception. I do use a 1x magnifier in my reading and shop safety glasses for fine print- saves on renting an 'arm stretcher'--

I never called you an A-hole (or said you could run the Arkansas Bellhole with 5P or HYP (Hippie rod) either-- I'm just calling them how i see them. The wood looks like it came from a Sunkist crate- and there are rough burrs or sanding marks by the forearm iron and around the locks. Cosmoline- OK, familiar with that- we used left over coffee from the Mess Hall urins to purge the bores of the M-1 Garands and the 1903 Springfields in the base Armory. But did Hunter Arms-Marlin use that military issue for civilian weapons? I also sold a near Mint 12 Elsie FW Ideal to a brother Parker Assn. member in PA about a year ago- it also had the original (1931 by Houchins' book) yellow tag matched to the gun's sn with all the salient details- didn't add one lick to the selling price or the value of the gun I sold. You can buy all the LC Smith hang tags from the Galazan boys, and fill them in to match any gun you wish to sell.

Case colors- hard to say. Hopefully, Ed "the torch" didn't fire up his old victor combo set with the Rosebud tip in place and go over this gun- and I still say, from your fotos anyway, the left firing pin looks to be about .0015" larger in dia. at the protruding tip than that for the right barrel- but that might be my "old welder's eyes" fooling me-

Pansies, petunias, burlap bags- try setting a gun you have for sale against a gunner's motif- a LOM case, or perhaps with a few duck decoys for a background.

The Froggies have a term Trompe l'oie (sic) which means- to fool the eye- and it also lead into the artists' trick of using the "rule of thirds" to draw the vision of the beholders to the key facets of the item- might be worth a "shot":whistle::whistle::whistle::whistle::whistle :

I'm sure you have many opinions but perhaps analyzing a nearly new very late Smith (1948 I think) is not your strong suit.
I will keep my thoughts about your's and other's forum etiquette to myself. I usually do the research and compare similar examples of any given gun (especially taking into consideration the time frame of thier production) before voicing an opinion on a collector's forum.
The pin diameter is hard to tell from the photos due to the picture's angle and slight shadow. But I must say that the degree to which you can measure from a two dimensional photo taken on a slight angle is truly remarkable. .0000

I really don't know why this gun would be listed as a parker fox. The parkers and the foxes I've handled never had wood to metal fit like that. I guess that is a good enough reason not to own a smith.

Sorry Tom about using the adjective that I did. However, the practice of sticking unrelated brand names in an auction title for the purpose of generating more search hits just plain irritates me.
Or maybe it is being done with this gun for a perfectly legit reason.

Another good example of this that I see often is "Baker Shotgun: NOT Lefever, Parker, Fox." Why tell a buyer what something isn't. Just tell them what it IS and if they are looking for it, then they might buy.

I personally don't mind the choice of outdoor setting.

Try a pre-1913 Smith- might change your mind
 

Even the late Mike McIntosh detailed that in his 1989 book- Best Guns- I own 4 12 bore Smiths- three graded ones made from 1907-1911 and a Specialty made in 1924-- The Smith I sold to a Brother PGCA member in PA was a FW Ideal 12- DT made in Feb 1945, or at least according to the yellow hang tag that went with it- It had the post 1939 style raised solid rib-a single sight plane if you will. It was mechanically perfect- the Mint Condition gun we all would like to buy-did have a Pachmayr red ventilated pad installed, by a perfect job- so that would be like a "Biker Bar Tattoo" on Sophia Loren- not quite right, but not a huge drawback either-

But you could tell that the lower graded Smiths- especially after the Marlin take-over, did NOT have the fine fit up of the pre-War higher graded Smith guns-You can see the same thing in the late 1960's (1960-1963) Winchester M70's and M12's (sadly)- when the shiny-seat-of-the pants clerks and bean counters take over, production quality and oftentimes, skilled worked morale suffers-:bigbye:

I agree with you-
 

[quote=Brian Dudley;52529]Sorry Tom about using the adjective that I did. However, the practice of sticking unrelated brand names in an auction title for the purpose of generating more search hits just plain irritates me.
Or maybe it is being done with this gun for a perfectly legit reason.

Another good example of this that I see often is "Baker Shotgun: NOT Lefever, Parker, Fox." Why tell a buyer what something isn't. Just tell them what it IS and if they are looking for it, then they might -- Let's remember that the gentleman offering this "rare" Smith is selling it (or trying too) NOT on our PGCA Forum (where, were he an annual or LIFE member, he could- for free)but on one of the "Free For All" forums auction website thingys- I call it "Gun Busters" or "Gunz and Roses' in this case (close cousin to the pansies I should guess) The rules of conduct- both written and unwritten (Thou Shalt NOT Speal Evil Of ANY brother PGCA Member) et al- most certainly DO NOT apply here-

Half the clowns selling firearms there miss-describe them, ejectors on a Trojan grade-- rare Doll's Head rib on a Trojan-- I will admit some of them do have good fotos- many of the sellers are Pawn Shops (Hey Chumlee- wake up!!) or other outlets of low repute- many do NOT offer a return for refund- you buy it as is- many do not honor a C&R, or recognize that the BATF rules allow you to ship without the FFL channel if the firearm was made prior to 1896- etc-etc--:bigbye:

Francis, The rib extension on a Trojan grade gun is not rare. I was standard on guns untill about 1920 or so.

100% right David- thanks
 

But some "dealers' on the auction sites will describe a Trojan as having the "rare" top rib or small doll's head extension to "trick" the uninformed potential buyer into thinking he/she(?) was about to buy a "rare or special" version of Parker's best selling model (after 1915 of course)-

I have seen the same "hype" used to hawk overpriced AH Fox Sterlingworth's made with the Parker style hinge pin-- When you get a chance, please check you PM here- thanks!!:bigbye::bigbye:

Could be an "optical illusion"
 

- BUT- regarding the 1945 FW 12 Ideal I sold- I always test with A-zoom snap caps, and use the old Armorer's trick of covering the "primer" with a piece of masking tape- The gun passed of course, but I noted that the indentation from the right barrel firing pin was somewhat larger in apparent diameter than that produced by the left firing pin- so I removed (carefully) the lock plates and took out the firing pins- and "miked" them for all dims- sure enough- the tip was 0.00125" longer and the OD 0.00115 larger than its "twin" for the LH barrel side-

No big deal, but, as many other PGCA Members (and here I note you are a Forum member, not an annual member- I hope you will spend the $40 to 'up-grade" as the quarterly magazine is well worth that amount alone- and then you can offer double guns for sale to the memberhsip here at no cost- something I do NOT believe the LCSCA yet allows)--

You might also care to note that I DID NOT comment on the gent's asking price- I never do that- It is a free country and he can ask whatever amount he cares to, and if he sells it for his asking price with box and tags and paperwork, more power to him indeed. I was a bit "taken aback" about the rumored $11K that the MINT 12 Trojan, formerly the property of the now late Ed Muderlak, sold for. Granted, Ed was an Icon to the PGCA and his books and writing abilities are/were surpassed by few (maybe Gough Thomas or Geoffrey Boothroyd) but I digress-Ed was not the deceased: Czar of Russia, or a Roosevelt who had his image graven on Mt. Rushmore- that kind of money for a economy graded Parker- blows my mind- I can only wonder what it might have fetched had it been a 20 bore--:whistle::whistle:

I own a 1946 LC Smith field Grade in fairly good condition. I have to remember that in the 1946 those shotguns were expensive Marlin shotguns and not cheep LC Smiths. The fit and finish does not appear to be the same as on the LC Smith's earlier guns. It would appear from my example that the colors are reasonable. While the shotgun in question is nice to look at, it has a fatal flaw as far as I am concerned. As it is new it would be a shame to shoot it, and I want to be able to shoot my firearms.
As for the backdrop, Why not!

Regarding the heading LC Smith along with Parker Fox; If you have ever typed LC Smith in as your search word on GB you can enter many different ways. With spaces between the L & C , without spaces, with periods, etc. Each one usually gives you a different set of results. I am sure it was Tom's objective to try and give the shotgun more exposure as most collectors/shooters I know who like LC's also like the other two. It was not meant to offend anyone....

None taken here!!
 

Lessee- Parker (OK Parker Brothers- Parker Bros.) Winchester, Remington, Ithaca, LeFever- all pretty straight forward- But you are correct- I have seen LC Smith and L.C. Smith (but not Smythe- yet anway) and both AH Fox and A.H. Fox-- also Holland & Holland and Holland and Holland Different strokes for different folks is my guess! All are good--:bigbye:

Runs At The Mouth,

You wonder why you get no respect on this and other websites......

Murphy,

Ed's gun was brand new in the box, I've seen it many times.



Destry

Maybe I'm like the late Rodney Dangerfield, already.
 

Destry, my Falstaffian friend, may I kindly remind you of the rules on the PGCA Forum- No nicknames allowed- we must register and pay our annual "tithe" under our real given name, in my case, Francis Morin.

Respect- funny phrasing coming from you I should guess. Tell you what- you find me ANY Honorable Discharged veteran from ANY branch of our Military to whom I have NOT shown proper respect here on the PGCA, and I'll reconsider your observations- maybe. I personally don't give a BRA about the other forum(s) upon which I may post or respond, they do NOT apply to the PGCA, and are either "Doonesbury" or "Pogo" in their comic scope and nature, for example- Homeless Joe et al. If you chose to take him seriously on the Forum where I post as Run With The Fox (allowable under Dave Weber's rules and regs) that is, of course, your option. But please do NOT disgrace the sancity of this PGCA Forum by rephrasing that sobriquet I use there with your "Hennepin County Windage" it isn't funny, it is uncalled for, and I try to show respect to you and the very few others on the PGCA forum that I may not personally wish to shoot birds with, because that is the "Guy Code" of it all.

Tell you what- let's make this 'respect" thing what the numbers boys call a "zero sum game"- I went to my members list and found that I have made 72 friends on the PGCA since I joined as a paid annual member in May 2009. As that is an 'open book" site on the PGCA, i went to yours- you have been a member since Nov 2008- and have made Zero friends to date.

I also see in PP you are an editor at large (don't worry, I won't take a 'shot' at that, tempting as it may well be-- But since that great article about the trip to Beaver Dam a few years ago that you wrote, I haven't seen anything. I get a lot of "flak' from some of the PGCA members about my "wordiness" and I accept that as one of my faults- But I had a PGCA member. who surmised I know a little about the Model 12's, ask my advice about one with an extra barrel he was looking at-long story short- he asked if I would write an article about the Model 12 and submit it for possible publication in PP, which I have, and Austin Hogan (and others) have read it.

I do NOT know, at this juncture, whether it will be used or not, as the M12 most assuredly is NOT a Parker- but my point is- if you are an editor- when do we get to see your next article- if you already have on "On Deck" with Austin, then- "As you were"--

I wish you no ill here- you are a superb wingshot, and if you do not chose to be my friend, that is your free choice- I offer my friendship openly, if refused- like my Grandfather said- "I don't chew my tobacco twice"- For the good of the harmony we need to grow our beloved PGCA with, let's leave the personal attacks and comments off the PGCA- The other websites (I am not a LCSCA or AHFCA member- so I don't post there, but I am sure they have the same "good conduct" policy as does the PGCA--) well that's a "whole 'nother ballgame"_ isn't it?? If you feel the need to "vent your spleen" against me, please do so on the DoubleGunWorkShoppe, where no one takes anything you, myself or Homeless Joe seriously--:p:p

Destry,
I value you thoughts greatly, even if you did outbid me on your Fox HE last year...
JJV

Sorry Francis, But what the hell are you talking about...:eek: Writing for the PP has nothing to do with this thread....:banghead:

I reported the thread to John Dunkle and suggested he delete the whole thing.

Mr Morin can get a little wound up at times and stray off topic, he knows that. However he served his country well in the Marine Corps, mastered and made a career of the difficult craft of welding and pipe fitting in high pressure and dangerous power plant installations,and is a father and doting grandfather. If for no other reason than that he deserves and has my respect.

I for one enjoy threads that show a little emotion and opinion even though most times they veer off topic. As long as they don't get abusive or contain personal attacks these type of posts show peoples true personalities and by reading them I can get a sense where these posters are coming from. We have many different types of guys/gals here who post for a million different reasons. I think we have room for them all as long as we keep it civil. I would rather have a little color in our conversations than just a completely sterile atmosphere. After all how many times have we been sitting around with a bunch of our friends just BSing and the conversation has taken on a life of its own?

John does a great job monitoring this site and he has told me on numerous occasions that threads with some personality will stand unless they cross the line.

Now that that's over, back to my intended question. What if that was a VH found in such a condition? The LC is going for almost 5000.00. I would say such a VH would fetch at least 30,000.00?? And then, would you use it?

Angel, I can shed some light on the original question. The mentioned Trojan 12ga is an example. Owned by Ed Muderlak for maybe 5 years, he sold it to Mark Vollinger. The gun was an ordinary late 12ga Trojan, new in the box, never assembled, wrapping paper. He sold the gun privately for his asking price of $6500?, then Mark had it a year or two, then sold it at Julia's for $10,000. This was a few years ago during the high prices.

I saw a couple near new 12ga V's go for $12,000 a few years ago, no box no wrapping paper. There are substantially unshot B's that went in the low 20's. In this economy, my guess would be maybe low 10's again, not anywhere near $30,000.

These guns retain their value by their non use, and the wise person who pays a premium for a new gun would not use it, because there are enough little used high condition guns around to satisfy that urge. I own a new near high grade and do not use it and display it only in its case. An acquaintance in Virginia has astounding near new or new guns, does not shoot them, and displays them only in controlled circumstances and wears white cotton gloves. You have to be very careful because people will want to pick these guns up and start waving them around. I'll disgress a bit.... I have seen people at gunshows drinking Coke ( think acid) put the drink down on your table and start picking up guns.

That's my views, gathered by listening and looking at Julia's where some of the best pass. Its only part of the picture and others follow the matter also. I invite other's views.

Thanks Bruce. I would have have paid more than that.

Ok as most of you know, I have a new in box VHE 16 ga skeet gun. A couple of years ago when I displayed it at our annual meeting and 16 ga was the theme and it came in second place (lost out to Jim Hall's A 1 special, not bad for a lowly VHE....) after the meeting and a few weeks later I had offers from 20 to 30. Yes I still have the gun. :)

Eric, as soon as I hit the lotto I'll give you a call. Your VHE 16 ga would have gotten my vote.

Ouch, looks like I was off, and no reflection on your great guns, Eric. But, that is a special rare one, skeet and a small bore. A genuine offer such as Eric had sets value much more than a seller's asking price.

Bruce, those are very astute observations and I couldn't agree more.

Call me a fool, but... about a dozen years ago I bought an unfired factory vent rib M42 .410. I shoot the gun occasionally on skeet fields or clays courses and enjoy shooting it as much as any gun I own. It is probably one of the last guns I will ever sell

It is a decision that the "current curator" alone must make. "Unfired" or "New" guns are rare, scarce or unique and as far as collectibility is concerned, it munt be a very considered decision because, to shoot an unfired or new gun immediately removes it from that category forever.

Angel, if you have a real opportunity and are serious about an unused Parker , in addition to Eric, there are a couple people I can refer you to for guidance. PM me and I'll put you in contact.

Yes it was a genuine offer and I probably should have taken it, but I didn't want to sell the gun. I will probably kick myself at a later date :crying: ! Some guns come and go and others well they speak to you in someway. I don't think that the gun has been put together, it's a time capsule and that's the reason it will never be fired or put together under my watch. I know others say why own a gun if you can't shoot it and mostly I agree with that but there are times when you just can't....

Thank you for the offer Bruce. I know the opinions are many but I would love to be the first one to use and unfired Parker. I don't think it would hurt as much after the first few times. And it would definetly be easier to take out after the first ding or scratch.