C grade photos requested
 

I've been asked to do a presentation on C grades. I think I will particularly discuss and show engraving styles and variations according to different periods. While I have some C's, a larger sampling would be appreciated. If you have a C, please email me or post photos of the side and bottom panel engraving with either the SN or the year of the gun.

After the presentation, I will do an article for PP publication.

Thank you for your help.

Bruce Day

wmbruceday@gmail.com


By the way, I talked to Doc Van and he will bring a couple C's to the meeting, the first a wonderful 20ga and the other a highly interesting 12ga with two Parker barrels, one a smoothbore and the other grooved for slugs. One of the barrels has an interesting "made for" rib inscription.

Hello Bruce ,This is my 20 Ga. CHE Remington era gun , "Serial #240983 " this is the gun I brought to Pintail a couple of years back for " Show and Tell " :)! All numbers match and we decided at the time it is a Runge engraved gun ! Hope this helps ! Russ

What was the date range Runge was engraving for Parker. I have an 1911 vintage gun whose engraving looks very similar the this C
David

David, there are father and son Runges, dates given in TPS. Both worked after 1911.

Bruce Day, Parker novice apprentice third class.

I don't believe the elder Mr. Runge was an engraver. I may be wrong. Mr. McCormack is the authority on Mr. Runge the younger and hopefully he will comment. Russ, I sniffed out your gun at the Vintagers and have only one thing to say. "There lay a shotgun." I stole that line from John Amber, and I have used it only a few times. Bruce's Remington C and your Remington C are a wonderful pair.

In the last years, G grade Rem Parkers had quail engraved on the floor plate. The Russ C seems to me made by the same hand as the late G quail.

I don't know what to make of the barrel breech wedges. I have not seen that ever on a C, but I know that end of production guns sometimes differed from the norm.

Thanks to all who have sent photos. I'm still looking for more. The larger the sampling, the better the results can be. I recall one author who wrote that C's were just like D's with a border and that was an instance of fooling the public. I suggest that statement could have only been made with inadequate sampling, and I am trying to be as complete as possible.

I agree with Bruce's comment about the "difference". There is a difference between the D and C.

Bruce, Where is this presentation taking place?

Very true Bruce. Perhaps you have not held and examined Russ' CHE but when you do you will find that it has several features rarely, if ever, seen on earlier C's. The unique checkering on both the stock and forend had us all questioning it's authenticity but with the trigger guard carefully removed - all doubt was removed. The "Jackson Parker" is truly unique among Parkers.

Yes Bruce, please tell us more.

David, TPS p. 473, 474, discusses the several Runges and Parker engraving.

The presentation will be at that arms museum in Louisville, whatever night I am assigned. Power Point presentation.

Bruce
Your presentation will precede the Peoples Choice Awards at the banquette Sat night. I am really looking forward to both
David

Bruce ,All the best with your presentation,always great to get Parker Guns in the spotlight ! Here is another earlier C ,I don't own this gun now but once did and regret ever parting with her ,It is a 12 Ga. w/ 32" Titanic Steel Barrels ,as you can see ,The dogs are located in the location ,of your Beautiful little Roundrel engraved C 20 Ga. ,but are missing the Oval Style Engraving around the Dogs .I am sorry ,I didn't attach a serial with it ,In my Parker record book ,I omitted the serial :banghead:,but I may have it in some of my records else where ,when and if I find it ,I will get back to the post with it !! Russ

Thanks Russ. The engraving is interesting because its like a roundel but not quite and is th e only one I have see like it, and I've seen a good sampling. I'd be interested in the year or SN. My guess is sometime after 1905 and before 1910, am I close?

Bruce , I have actually seen one other for sale with the same style engraving ,I really liked the engraving on this gun but the Case Colors were a bit much ,I regret not having the gun recolored instead of selling it ! For some reason ,I didn't record the serial # in my records ???? But ,I have a Journal made up for my Wife and Daughter with serial #'s and guns I own ,,when I part with one ,I generally delete it and add a new one to their Journal when I purchase one ,my Daughter keeps this Journal ,I will ask her to take a look and see if this gun is still listed in her book !This may sound like a little paranoia ,but you never know when we will be called home ,and you hear so many horror stories of Families selling collectible guns to unscrupulous folks ,that I figure although she has little interest in my guns ,she and my Wife should know the value and also names of a couple of Folks to get in touch with that may be interested in your guns and would never dream of stealing them from her ,as a matter of fact a few of my Fellow PGCA members are listed in that little book ! I tell all of my friends that I do this and highly recommend it to everyone ! Russ

Russ, that is another wonderful C. Thanks for showing it.

Very good 'foreward thinking' on the record keeping for your survivors too.

I too, am looking forward to your presentation Bruce. If you don't already have pictures of my Bernard CH let me know if you would like some and what exactly I should send.

Dean

Sorry to say that a couple months ago my computer hard drive died and I did not have the photos backed up. So I lost a whole collection of C photos and am having to start over.So yes, please email or post photos, I need more, particularly if you have something really different. About half the C's up until the mid 20's were kind of standard C engraving and the other half could be anything. After the mid 20's they all varied. There are even some with deep cut, Germanic engraving. The odd thing is that on some oddly engraved guns, there is nothing in the order record mentioning that. I have no explanation for that when you would think unusual engraving would be carefully requested.

It has been my somewhat limited experience that on grades 4 and higher the engraver often deviated from what might be considered "standard for the grade". Where the subject matter of the engraving and/or the 'style' of the engraved panels are rarely noted in the record books I tend to believe it was left up to the engraver as to how he chose to render his art.

This one is similar to the one Russ pictured, serial # 123014, CHE, damascus barrels. Jim A.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e4...E/PC012019.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e4...E/PC012020.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e4...E/PC012017.jpg

Yes, however, some engraving was clearly more time consuming than others, and the engravers were paid by the piece, not the hour, so why would an engraver spend more time than would be normally allocated to the grade? I have no answers, only questions.

Jim, that is also the roundel side panel engraving, a favorite of mine. Some have engraved circles around the dog scene. My sampling indicates that was on about a quarter of the C's produced between 1900 and 1905. If anyone has any facts or dates otherwise, I'd like to know. Thanks for the photos. The engraving is an uncommon, maybe rare style. With the roundel side panels, the floor plate engraving also always departs from the standard C floorplate of the period.

Bruce ,I went through my PGCA letters and found the letter on the C Grade that I last posted ,,It reads ,Parker Shotgun ,Serial # 121992 Ordered on Sept. 11 ,1903 shipped on Nov.13 1903 ,CHE Hammerless,12 Ga. Pistol Grip ,RH,Full ,LH Full LOP 14 ,DAH 2 5/8 ,8 Lbs.

Yes, very close. Possibly done by the same hand...?

Well that modifies my dates back to the original 1900 to 1905. I was thinking that the borderless roundel might be a little later and a transition , but maybe not.

Yes, Dean, my conjecture, no facts to back it, is that the roundel style was done by an engraver who happened to be at Parker from 1900-1905 and when he/she left, the style left. There are a few B's also with roundels. Anybody with any other thoughts?

I know of one G with roundelle engraving. It is a 16 ga., if I'm not mistaken. It sold on gunbroker about four years ago. I wasn't quick enough on the bidding and someone else is the proud owner. Maybe it will surface again... at least pictures of it so we can all enjoy it.

Bruce ,I am about ready to leave so I won't get to reply back or get a look at it until I get in from work this evening ,but would you mind posting a picture of that Absolutley beautiful 20 Ga. C Grade of yours with the Roundel Engraving so the new folks on our Forum are able to see what we are talking about ! I will Thank you now for the post ! :corn: Russ

See David Dwyer's thread starting The People's Choice C Grade