Patterning
 

A couple weeks or so back a newly acquired Parker DHE 12 bore arrived. The letter specified as follows: DAC 1 3/8", DAH 2". Special instructions were Silvers rubber butt, medium thick comb, 2" of pitch, no safety, trigger pull 3 pounds, 2 Lyman sights, and full choke. The price was $75 plus $10 for extra long barrels (34").

The gun now has 1 9/16" DAC and 1 3/4" DAH AND now sports a manual safety with a PB slide. The engraving used to disguise the slot is still visible under the slide. PB work, who knows? My concern was the where the darn thing was going to shoot as it felt and looked really high to me. I can see a lot of rib on this one so off to the patterning board we go. I shot it at 34 yards as 40 would have required me to get muddy. Using Fiocchi 1 oz of #8 with both bores at .040 constriction I was both pleased and surprised. Right bore was dead on as pictured with the left shooting the same pattern but shifted to the left about 4". Now if it ever quits raining we can try some clay targets.

Does it still have the thicker comb, and if so, how do you like it? I have three Parkers with the medium full comb. I don’t notice any difference except the wrists are thicker, and I do notice that in handling them.

That pattern would be difficult to fly out of!

Can you let me know what you use for the pattern board? Is it metal and do you repaint it between shots?
Thx

Yes Garry, it still sports the thicker comb. Wrist would be normal and not thicker. Can't say that I can tell any difference either with the fuller comb

No thanks Harry.

Pattern
 

Two things come to mind with that fantastic result. Those chokes are perfect and it really likes those Fiocchi shells. 1 ounce loads in a big heavy gun like that has to be a pleasure to shoot. What diameter was your disc, 30"? Thanks for letting us know about this Randy.

Frame size
 

Oh, and what's the frame on that gun?

With a gun stocked that high I have never had one to shoot flat. They're always way too high for me, too. I know how surprised you must've been. I cannot explain that, can you? When you're looking down on the rib I have found them to ALWAYS shoot high, sometimes VERY high.

But, first, congratulations. I'd be elated as I know you must be.

Yes Larry it's a 30" board and a 2 frame.

No explanation Stan. I see more rib on this than any other gun I shoot regularly. I shot it 4 times on the board and the results in terms of elevation were exactly the same every time.

Now go shoot some flying thingies. That will tell you where it really shoots.:cool:

That's the plan Daryl.

Amazing. Maybe pitch can help explain it?

I think it is just the nature of shotgun shooting. With a rifle, you carefully align the sights and adjust them to coincide to the aiming point. With a shotgun, and focusing on the target, you see the target and the alignment of the barrels to point to where you want the shot to go. I like to shoot a gun with a high stock so that I can see the barrels while focusing on the target. Doing that lets my brain point the barrels at the target point without thinking about it.

If I try to pattern a shotgun and treat it like a rifle, I often miss the center. If I instinctively mount the gun and shoot when I see the gun pointed at the center, I usually hit closer to the intended point. I have seen and read some gun coaches who teach this style of patterning.

Pattern like you shoot.

I have always been a shotgun "patterner". For decades I went the paper route, but finally built my own grease plate for it, and take pics of the patterns if I want to save them. A big purpose in patterning is to determine if a doublegun is regulated to shoot both barrels to the same point of impact, that being my point of aim. Some do not. All that don't can't be corrected to do so. Some can by the judicious switching of loads. The length of time the payload stays in the barrels is a big determining factor in regulation.

I may have related this story here before but hopefully it's worth repeating. It is a perfect example of the value of patterning with the loads you intend to use in a double. I traded for a 20 Ga. Philly Sterlingworth Ejector to make into my dedicated quail and woodcock gun. It has 28" barrels and was choked tighter than I wanted. I patterned it with 7/8 oz. loads at about 1250 fps and it crossfired terribly, to the tune of 8" laterally with each barrel. That is absolutely not satisfactory to me so I called Dean Harris. We discussed it and he agreed to open the chokes to .006"R and .016"L, lengthen the chambers to 2 3/4", and try to regulate the barrels by his method of honing the inside of the choke area to move the pattern.


He called me some time later with the news that all she wanted was to be fed 1 oz. loads at about 1150 fps. The longer time the payload was in the barrel and the slightly greater recoil with these loads, as compared to the 7/8 oz. loads at 100 fps faster velocity, gave the gun time to move more, laterally, under recoil before the payload exited the barrel. Result was a perfectly regulated gun with one pattern dead atop the other, and both 50/50 on POA.

A shot of my plate after shooting some .410 patterns. I keep a paint roller in a plastic 5 gal. bucket with a few inches of a mixture of white housepaint and motor oil in the bottom of it. After each pattern shot I just roll it, rendering a fresh coat to represent the pattern for the next shot.

https://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/74021_800x600.jpg

Edited for clarity

Thanks for this info. I want to make a plate. I assume steel - how thick? What is your's made of Randy? What is in the center? Stan, you mention a mix of paint and oil - 50/50 mix? What does the oil do? Sorry for the barrage of questions. I have always just used paper, but it gets old having to change all the time. Do you shoot more than once before you roll it?

Thanks everyone for input.

No problem, Rick.

My plate is 3/8" steel plate. My mix is not 50/50. I use much less oil than paint, not sure of the ratio. The purpose of the oil is to prevent the paint from drying out so quickly. A pattern can be rolled out days later and it's still wet.

I almost always roll it after each pattern. I may occasionally shoot left and right barrel's patterns atop each other to verify that they are regulated, but usually shoot separate patterns and snap a pic of each. I change the number at the top on the yellow card to keep track of those I want to save for future reference.

My other main use for the plate is shooting duck guns for pattern density measurements. I have numerous tightly choked duck guns and enjoy trying to find the tightest patterning loads for them.

Rick the owner of a local fabricating shop had a piece of scrap 1/8" metal plate that he was able to cut that out of. It's thin but easy to move around and will handle any shot size that I would ever shoot it with. He welded that doughnut aiming/focus point in the middle of it. Looks like it's a 1/4" piece. I also used paper until now and I agree that it is a PITA.

My name is Bob and I'm a patternaholic (and I hate floating birds)

https://i.imgur.com/b0sXBGf.jpg

Stan

More people should test more loads that differ by ballistics. I think a lot of people generally have a ballistic load they like and if they try varying loads to move the patterns they choose different brands of the same general load. There is no reason to believe the dynamics of a double shotgun are different than a double rifle. When trying to regulate a double rifle, the general method is to vary velocity and bullet weight slowly to do away with crossing point of impact. A load of shot is basically a bullet until it leaves the barrel, and will impart a varying recoil effect on the right vs left barrel depending on the recoil level of the shot. There is an effect also on vertical placement, but it is the same for both barrels and it seems, at least to me, that it is not as pronounced as the horizontal effect. That is due I think to the gun having more resistance to movement vertically due to the nature of how it is held.

Randy my 34" VH has chokes of .030 & .036 with a stock that measures 14 15/16 - 1 9/16 - 1 3/4. Which would normally be too high for me as I see a lot of rib, but like yours it shoots dead on with 50/50 patterns. Mine has no safety

This is a quandary for me. I would give a "purty" if I could shoot both Randy's and James' guns to see if they shoot flat for me, too. Until now no gun with less than 2 3/8" DAH has ever shot flat for me.

Maybe I need to reread my copy of The Stockfitter's Bible by Rollin Oswald to see if I can figure out what's going on here.

Nowadays I rarely do paper or plate patterning except to determine efficiency (percentage 30"/40-50-60 yards) when testing loads in special long range shotguns. I shoot a variety of guns regularly and with a new one I'll shoot a shot or two at a floating leaf or such in the water at about 30 yards and while on a platform or hill etc. I see the pattern in the water and can determine the approximate degree of choke and point of impact; rarely do I see much of a horizontal deviation. As the saying goes, "close enough for government work"; you can go nuts trying to be too precise given the poi variation with different loads and even a new lot of the same loading. That's something I learned from the late Kenny Eyster the noted barrelsmith from many days in his shop while tuning competition shotguns. I keep track of the vertical "water" height in a notebook and refer to it when using that shotgun on future outings. Subconscious does the rest.

To further add to the quandary Stan I shot a round of skeet and wobble trap last evening and this gun was spot on. One could opine or argue that the critical measurement in terms of drop is the DAC right below your eye or about 2" from the nose of the stock which I have not measured on this gun and compared with others. It may be quite similar thus negating some of the high dimensions in the DAH? Possibly? Of course that does not explain why I can see more of the rib on this one vs other guns and still shoot spot on, back to the quandary I suppose.

That’s a handsome gun Randy. Congratulations

Thanks Ed, it's growing on me. Might be a good idea to keep a couple of spreaders handy for those pesky 15 yard bunnies with this one.

Randy, could the reason they shoot flat be the 34" barrels? Do you have other Parker guns with 34" barrels? If so how do they shoot

Randy: does the letter document the original purchaser? If so I could check the Sporting Life archives and see if he was a "Top Gun". Also let me know the DOM so I know where to look.

:rotf::rotf::rotf::rotf:

James my other 34" guns have measurements that fit my preferences more closely and they pattern just fine as one would expect. As far as the 34" barrels having some sort of impact on the patterning results I am probably not qualified to answer that.
BTW I remember your gun from a Rock Mtn. shoot where you had it out as I recall, I think that's where we were :whistle:

Much appreciated Drew. The following as copied from the letter:

Parker shotgun, serial number 170918, was ordered by Mr. G.B. Cragg of Dallas, TX on April
12, 1915 and shipped on June 11, 1915. According to Parker Bros. Order Book No. 92, it was a DH
hammerless, 12-gauge. It featured Titanic steel barrels with a length of 34 inches. The stock
configuration was a pistol grip. The requested specifications were Length of Pull 14 ½”, Drop at Comb
1 3/8”, Drop at Heel 2”, Weight 7 ¾ to 8 pounds. Special instructions were Silvers rubber butt, medium
thick comb, 2” of pitch, no safety, trigger pull 3 pounds, 2 Lyman sights, and full choke. The gun was
consigned.
The price was $75.00 plus $10.00 for extra long barrels, $18,75 for ejectors, $5.00 for Silvers
pad, and $1.00 for Lyman sights

In 1912 he shot in a tournament in Boston
https://digital.la84.org/digital/col...d/27368/rec/11

at the Dallas Trap Club in March
https://digital.la84.org/digital/col...d/26318/rec/13

He represented the U.S. Cartridge Co. in Texas
https://digital.la84.org/digital/col...d/26341/rec/14

and was listed as a Professional in 1913
https://digital.la84.org/digital/col...id/25406/rec/1

His 1914 average is listed under Professionals here
https://digital.la84.org/digital/col...id/56176/rec/2

In 1919 he was living in New Orleans
https://cdnc.ucr.edu/?a=d&d=SDU19191...t-txIN--------

That's the part that's buggin' me. I've never shot a gun that shot flat for me when I was looking down on the rib. But, rules are made to be broken. Now, I'll start second guessing myself when I pass on a nice shotgun stocked high for the traps, or such. Livinlearn. :nono:

Pitch plays into it too, Harry.

For me, pitch plays more of a role in keeping the gun on my shoulder after recoil. I have a PAC Fox 32" gun in which I see way more rib than I would like but it too shoots where I look. Then again I've had guns that when mounted look perfect but I just couldn't be consistent with it. Go figure.:banghead:

Perusing through the information as provided by Dr. Drew I see that in the first 12 tournaments in the Interstate Association in 1914 a recognizable Gent by the name of W. R. Crosby was near the top of the leader board with an average of .957 while Mr. Cragg was at the other end of the board with an average of .705, both listed as "Professionals". One thing is for certain he was not shooting the 1915 DHE in question at that point in time. Possibly his lackluster scores lead to the ordering of this 34" gun.

Crosby was certainly one of the turn-of-the-century "Top Guns"; along with Fred Gilbert, J.A.R. Elliot and Rolla Heikes.
He was a representative for Baker Gun & Forging from at least 1897 until 1899, twice winning the “E.C.” Target Championship of America, first with a “$30 Baker Hammerless” B grade, then with a Paragon. He won the “Review Cup” from J.A.R. Elliott in October 1899 killing 98/100 live birds.
In 1900 he won the Sportsmen’s Association Championship Trophy held on the Madison Square Garden roof under the auspices of the Sportsmen's show March 1-17.

After the first GAH at Targets in June he changed to a L.C. Smith and was part of, and High Gun, in the victorious American team in the June 1901 Anglo-American Clay Bird Match.

In 1904, Crosby ordered through Capt. duBray a 20g VH, 30” barrels with F/F chokes, no safety, LOP-14”, DAC-1 3/8”, DAH- 2 1/4”, Pitch-2 3/4’, Weight- 6lb-10oz., Chambers- 2 7/8”, RH trigger- 3 1/2lb, LH trigger- 4lb.
The Parker records include the notation “Send Bill - Compliments of Parker Brothers”. (Courtesy of Daryl Corona)
He continued to compete with his Smith, and the gun may have been for Mrs. Crosby.

At the Philadelphia Eastern Handicap July, 1906 he was using a Parker with 32” barrels.

Lots more here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...c/edit?tab=t.0

In 1904, Crosby ordered through Capt. duBray a 20g VH, 30” barrels with F/F chokes, no safety, LOP-14”, DAC-1 3/8”, DAH- 2 1/4”, Pitch-2 3/4’, Weight- 6lb-10oz., Chambers- 2 7/8”, RH trigger- 3 1/2lb, LH trigger- 4lb.
The Parker records include the notation “Send Bill - Compliments of Parker Brothers”. (Courtesy of Daryl Corona)

I still have this gun and if the gun was for Mrs. Crosby she was built like me (:eek:) because if I was ever to have a gun custom made for me I would use these measurements. It's one of those guns I can just pick up break targets with.

Thanks for the reminder Drew.:bowdown:

I haven't found much on Mrs. Crosby, but she did compete. The first Ladies Amateur National Championship was at the 1916 GAH in St. Louis, won by Mrs. D.J. Dalton; Miss Harriett Hammond 2nd
https://digital.la84.org/digital/col...oll17/id/22498
Day 2 Ladies Special Event
Mrs L.G. Vogel
Mrs H. Almert
Miss Harriett D. Hammond
Miss L. Meusel
Mrs D.J. Dalton
Mrs. F.A. Johnson
Mrs C. Edmiston
Mrs H.L. Patter
Mrs J.L. Hooper
Mrs W.R. Crosby
Mrs D.B. Foster
Miss E. Wettleaf
Mrs A. Killam

BTW she was one of the wives to accompany (keep an eye on ;) ) her husband to the 1901 Anglo-American match

American Team Departs May 26
The team will consist of the following shots: Capt. Thos. Marshall, R.O. Heikes, W.R. Crosby. C.W. Budd. J.S. Fanning, J.A.R. Elliott, F. Gilbert. F.S. Parmelee, C.M. Powers, Edward Banks, E.H. Tripp, Richard Merrill, and B. Le Roy Woodard.
Others with the team are: Capt. A.W. Money, Emil Werk, D.F. Pride, D. Erhardt, Fred. Elliott, and Frank Harrison.
The ladies of the party are Mrs. Banks, Mrs. Crosby, Mrs. Tripp, Miss Werk and others.