PGCA recognized
 

With the increased interest in hammer guns and side-by-side shotguns in general, fostered by organizations such as The Vintagers, the Parker Collectors Ass'n and others, many are taking another look at their old shotguns with an eye to shooting them again.

Just a couple lines from an interesting reference about old shotguns.

Check it out HERE if you haven't already seen Grampa's Shotgun: More Than Sentimental Value?

My Oh My, that PGCA address and the prices for a Research Letter are all about eight years old at least and outdated/incorrect today.

However, it's a pretty decent article on it's own merit.

I thought there was a sale on letters :)

It's to bad that many shooters are turned off by the whole deal of the Edwardian Gunners. I have been to many of the early SxS shoots, trouble is I don't sport button shirts, wool of any sort. Penrith stockings, Yorkshire derby's....... I did enough of that at Prep school. Now if they allowed tie dyes, shorts, New Balance sneakers, a VW Micro bus I might be tempted to go again.
SxS's owners are a rare breed, but there is a division in owners, if your not rolling with Lord Rippon than you just ain't cool. I could tell you countless stories of going into shops looking for bespokes, all while they aren't treating you like a customer more like a thief. Then there working with the guy who's all dolled up.

Mark - Come to the Southern SxS next time. We roll a bit differently down there. There are guys who sport their vintager togs, and that's OK, but more of us are just jeans and tee shirts. Even the Holland and Holland guys are pretty relaxed.

In contrast I have found the Downeast Chapter of the Vintagers to be very welcoming. This past weekend they held a shoot in Scarborough Maine. There were as many people in t-shirts, sneakers and jeans as period style clothing. Squads were mixed between chapter members and non members, trophies were open to all. Any side by side qualified, from American classic to Brownings and Ithaca SKB's. Everyone was invited to go to lunch after at a local restaraunt. It doesn't get much more welcoming than that. In my opinion the small Downeast chapter is doing it right by being so welcoming they create an atmosphere that promotes membership. Good bunch of people they are!

Well then I need to re-think. Last event I was at was the first Vintagers at Orvis in NY to me it was a turn off. I had a grand time there hanging with my friend the late Bill Wise. We talked all day about Linder's and riding the pipes on long boards, he was the first old time surfer I ever met that surfed the Gas Chambers and the Mavricks. Many who knew Bill didn't even know at one time he was the baddest east coast surfer who went to HI brought back with him the velcro wallet and the bikini.

In contrast I was made to feel very unwelcome at a nice gun store in Concord, NH by the two pot-bellied, scruffy proprietors who each had an ivory-handled Colt Thunderer in his belt. They had some pretty nice doubles on the wall behind the counter and I asked to examine a very nice looking 16 ga. Fox CE. (my well-backed checkbook was in my pocket) The first thing the guy closest to me said was "Well, are you gonna buy it?" I told him I didn't know if I would and I could only answer the question honestly after I examined the gun. He said "Look buddy, that's an expensive gun there and we can't let just anybody handle it. If you're not gonna buy it I can't let you touch it." I politely thanked him and left the store without even glancing at any of the other fine doubles on the wall or even those in the racks on the floor. I haven't visited that store since.

I guess boorish behavior isn't limited to the 'upper echelon' of gun dealers and I have yet to be treated so poorly by much finer gun stores.

I firmly believe that there is room for everybody in the PGCA and double gun community in general. The love of SxS shotguns transcends all classes of people from the working man to the well healed. I have met and am proud to call very many of these folks my friends. Me... I'm a jeans and T-shirt kinda guy for the most part because that's just who I am.

Just made me chuckle. I'm thinking that would be a semi or pump or O/U shooter who, after divine intervention, has seen the light.

Now back to the first cup of coffee for today.

Cheers,
Jack

I guess you haven't been into Eurochasse, talk about a verbal beat down. Years ago after a long struggle getting my business going I had sold just about all I owned. After I got it going and moved out of my mothers basement I felt I deserved a 21, they had what I wanted, trap grade, vent rib, monte carlo stocked. At that time the best ride I had was a work van, so my lady friend and I took the ride up there. I had my binky of cash in my pocket, all while explaining to her why I deserved that gun, the chances I took, the lows, almost lost it all...... Well we had a good ol time on the way up, but when we got there I was about to wet my pants. "I mean that" I walked in "GREETINGS do you have a bathroom" sorry no public rest room. OK thanks Pal.
I will bad mouth that shop til they day they close.

Now go to G&H, Safari Oufitters, British Sporting Arms, they will let you handle anything in those shops just ask.

Stop bragging, your butt is not that big :rotf:

My Dad used to say "I don't generally sit this high... it's just my wallet." It was a very tongue-in-cheek comment because he never had much in his wallet.... or anywhere else.

Never judge a book by it's cover or a potential client by appearances. I think some of this "attitude" is fostered by the gunning community themselves. Look at the adds in DGJ, Shooting Sportsman for the hunting opportunities. Orvis Endorsed, Beretta Trident endorsed ect. A Quail hunt is $1200 per day plus taxes and tips and gormet food. I would love to do a Plantation style Quail hunt but I don't need to eat artsy fartsy food just give me good birds and some fried chicken, a burger fries and a cold beer or Old #7 and I'm good.

I was once told many years ago by the owner of a upscale retail store that a double gun should have two triggers and if I couldn't shoot two triggers than I should just use an 870:eek: When we would go north I always made a point to stop in and look over the guns, I even had put a couple of Repo's on consignment there. I always bought something be it shells, a book ect. the owner would call me single trigger and never gave me any respect. I went in once for the specific purpose of buying an AYA #1 20ga (single trigger) I had seen and he (the owner) was to busy BSing with someone else. I waited about 10min and my presence was never acknowledged so I left and haven't been back.

I am really disappointed that only one poster has named the establishments where they were treated badly. Even Boxbirder told us about someone we already knew was not a "friendly face". Nothing new in his post. However, he did remind me of my friend Bill Wise's visit to the first New York Vintagers. I believe he made that trip with his son, Ben. That may have been the year Ben won the hammer gun championship. It was great to see Bill wheeling through the tents, renewing old friendships and making new friends. I don't know why Boxbirder had a bad time at the Vintagers. I have never had a bad time at the Vintagers, and I have never worn anything but shorts and six inch work boots.

By the way, Bill Wise's website is still active, telling about the history of surfing and bikinis in Delaware and Maryland and the Wise contribution. Bill and Rosalie brought the first bikini patterns to the East Coast from Hawaii and sewed bikinis and sold Hobie Alter's surfboards out of their shop on the Delaware beach, even after Bill's accident. Check out billwisesurfs.com

I still wear Birdwell Beach Britches when I am forced to sit on the beach.

Fieldsport, Traverse City, MI

I have bought some of my best keeper guns at deflated prices from dealers who have treated me badly. I'm sure Richard has had similar experiences.

The dealer at the Vintagers was New England Arms? out of NH?? I believe he went belly up a few years later. He treated me like a putz when I asked to look at a 21 32" duck Magnum. Then gave me a line like do you know what the costs is on it. Today none of it really matters to me.

The thing I think about more is old Bill, he set me up with quite a few guns over the years. So much that he would give me a call and the deal was already in motion. One of the coolest guns he found for me was a Greener Pigeon gun in Australia, he called and then emailed I had just hooked up the first Blackberry that was offered to the public. Bill's email was the first I ever got on a handheld. I called that gunshop "McDonalds" i believe there out of business, gave them a CC and had to wait about 6 months to get that gun in. Bill turned me onto several Linder's also. But the thing we always spoke about was surfing, shaping boards and his idol the Duke. Yes that was the year Ben won the Hammer gun, Andy Duffy was the SxS winner with the Galazan RBL.

Ben and I still cross paths at some of the pigeon shoots here and there. We mostly talk about the wise old owl, Bill was one of a kind and this post makes me think of him. It also makes me think when I complain about things in life I should reflect on Bill a little more. I'll raise that bottle of Mountain Dew for DA MAN.

I don't see Ben very often, but my wife and I try to look in on him every year at the Vintagers. I don't think Ben has shot at our pigeon club, but he is welcome as my guest any time he would like. By the way, I also have a Greener. Graham Greener, in discussing my Greener with me a few years back, told me that he knew of another one like mine, an unengraved Royal and it belonged to another Yank named Ben Wise. He was surprised when I told him that I knew Ben, was familiar with his gun, and live right down the road from him. Small world.

Mark, As you must have learned at prep school, we are judged by our clothes. They are a costume and intended to say something. Snob is for the birds, but clothes can't be ignored. David

Most people can tell the social culture of an organization as soon as they enter a room. It's welcoming or it's not.

David, I don't think costume has anything to do with it. We are not what we own. It's not hard to spot character. It has little to do with clothes.

Bill and Mark, you both knew Bill Wise, I talked to him on the phone but never met him, but I have one question, did Bill ever complain about what life dealt him? Cause whenever I called him he was the most upbeat guy that I knew. Just wondering. Eric

He never complained in his correspondence with me.

The first time I ever met Bill I didn't know who he was, pre internet forum. It was out in PA and Ben brought him out to a pigeon shoot. I guess I was about 27 at the time, I believe he was shooting some practice birds with some type of bi pod on his wheel chair. Now here is a little turn in my life, I can remember this to the T, there was a guy who had a Scott Hammer gun shooting a few practice birds. Bill was behind him along with Ben. After 2 birds the right hammer broke, Bill knew right where the hammer fell, pointed to it and I picked it up. I had a Billibong shirt on, he asked if I surfed.... from there we spent the better part of 4 hours talking about boards, surfing, duck billing the big waves.

We became friends over the years, at that time the surfer boy didn't have cheese to toss around on guns, but I always listened to Bill about the Linder's. When he got internet I set him up with a PC and cable modem. He could type faster then I could with his mouth then I could with my hands. As time went on Bill and I would BS on the phone weekly more often about surfing, riding the big waves, long boards, carving the gas chambers. When my business turned around he loved chasing guns for people and I think he had got allot of pleasure finding them for people.

Bill never complained about his surfing accident, he once said to me "a little bit of something is better then nothing" I don't think many people realized he was a surfer at heart from the ankle snapping Eastern shore. Rosalie was his rock and big kudo's go out to her.

As I made mention in another post, I should be more like Bill when I complain about stupid things in life. We all should for that matter.

As I made mention in another post, I should be more like Bill when I complain about stupid things in life. We all should for that matter.[/QUOTE]

I'll second that.... !