Ithaca
 

Question to all the double gun collectors
Why are Ithaca shotguns so cheap compared to Parker, LC Smith, Lefever and Fox
I have had a few of them over the years and they are usually well used.
I recently picked one up because it was so cheap and after looking it over could not figure out why they more valued.

They were made in the highest numbers compared to other american doubles. By a lot!

It has been my ecperience that an inordinate number of Ithaca doubles have, or have had, rib problems where the rib has separated to a greater or lesser degree from the barrels.





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Ithaca guns were not very well fitted and finished. For a long while, Ithacas were some of the cheapest field guns out there. And the other makers were having to try and match their price point to compete.

Regarding the numbers of production. Their main line of doubles exceeded 400,000 guns built in the different variations. That is twice what parker built. But when you also factor in the Lefever Nitro Special and the Western Arms guns, they built a crap ton of guns. I dont have the numbers in front of me, but they built more lefever nitro specials than Dan lefever ever built “real” lefevers.

In my opinion, Ithaca guns are the last great value in today’s market place. Some of the high grade small bore guns are incredibly rare!

The far and away most common Ithaca double is the Flues Model, some 223000, which has a bad reputation for frame cracking, and many were made very light and are found with thin barrels.

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I use to think the frame cracking was only in the very light smallbores, but then I picked up a series of letters concerning a 1921 vintage No. 4 10-gauge --

Attachment 127720 Attachment 127721

For 1926, Ithaca Gun Co. introduced the New Ithaca Double (NID) with a stronger frame, new lock work and a rotary bolt, some not fitted as well as they should be. The Field Grade NID was introduced at $37.50 retail.

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That same year the Godshalks moved the A.H. Fox Gun Co. into a new more efficient factory and dropped the price of a Sterlingworth from $48 to $36.50 a dollar cheaper than a Field Grade NID.

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The price of the Sterlingworth remained $36.50 until June 1932 when Savage upped it to $39.50.

Dean what is your data base?

Just looked at my tech spreadsheet and I've owned 18 Ithaca double-guns mostly NID's and some Nitros/A-Grades and Flues (nothing earlier). I shot most of them regularly and never had a loose top, bottom or short rib or forend lug. I also owned several Ithacas before using Excel to document tech specs of each gun and again, don’t remember having a rib problem with any of them. I’m not saying it can’t happen but ime it’s got to be relatively infrequent.

The only rib issue that I have noticed on a few Ithacas/Ithaca Lefever seems to be very back of the top rib lifting up where it meets the extension. But I have personally seen more cracked frames on flues guns than I have with rib issues.

Not that the frames cracking was a real issue if people would have just used the loads that the guns were designed for.

I don't have any data Frank, just personal experience with a number of Ithacas belonging to friends and acquaintances. They were all fairly well used guns in average condition otherwise. As I think back I can recall six that had rib separations to one degree or another.
My experience with Ithacas is very small compared to my experience with Parkers and of the many hundreds of Parkers I have handled or examined I can think of only two that had rib issues and both of those were limited to the forend loop, or lug, having come loose.





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This isn’t exactly a piece of junk…or is it?

Nice!!





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Early on, MSRP for higher grade doubles were similar

c. 1890 Factory Hammerless List Price Comparison

L.C. Smith..........Ithaca..............Parker......... ........Lefever

……….....…………...No. 1 - $50
………….....………...No. 2 - $60…..…….PH/1 - $65….…….G - $65
No. 2 - $80……….No. 3 - $80……..….GH/2 - $80….….….F - $80
No. 3 - $100…....No. 4 - $100……...DH/3 - $100……..E - $100
No. 4 - $150……..No. 5 - $150……...CH/4 - $150……...D - $125
No. 5 - $200……..No. 6 - $200……...BH/5 - $200……...C - $150

$100 in 1890 is worth about $3000 today

Brian is correct that Field grade Ithacas were priced lower than the other top tier makers

Comparative Sears Catalog “Net Selling Price” for Hammerless Non-Ejector Doubles 1897-1908

……………………1897……….1902……....1905…….1908

Smith
No. 00… …………………….….……………..25…...….….25
No. 0……………..31.75…………………….32.90........32
No. 1……………..37.22…………………….42……...…….42
No. 2……………..42……………54……………....………...56
No. 3……………..61.20
Pigeon……………89.75….....84.37

Parker
GH……………….51.20……….58.20
DH……………….64.25
CH……………….96.75

Ithaca
Field…………………………..........…………………………..18
No. 1……………..26……………........………………………24
No. 2……………..37……………37.50

Remington
1894 A grade…33…………………………..30
1894 B grade…………………….45
1900 KO………………..………………………..21.50…….23.50

Baker
Batavia Leader…………………..24……………………….22.50
B grade…………..31.75………..32…………….………..37.50
A grade…………..36.25………..37.50………………….45
Model S……………………………………….......…………..35
Model R……………………………….......…………………..48.75


1912 Schoverling, Daly & Gales Catalogue
Courtesy of David Noreen

L.C. Smith No. 00 - $25
Fox Sterlingworth - $25
DS Grade Lefever - $25
Field Grade Ithaca - $19
Baker Batavia Special - $19


Lots more here
https://docs.google.com/document/u/0...XhewGB03SE/pub

I have owned and now own quite a few Ithacas. I have never seen one with a loose rib but will say that the bane of the Flues gun was a cocking hook that wears out on a regular basis. There used to be aftermarket replacements available, but that is not true at the current time. The most knowledgeable smith to fix these recently passed away and repair is very difficult to obtain. I have three very high grade 16's currently suffering with no real solution. The problem is made worse by the fact that all the years, grades and gauges seem to have very different measurements. I have a box of potential donors which don't fit.

On the upside the NID, in my opinion and the opinion of many experts, is the strongest of all the classic American doubles and included a magnum waterfowl gun that ranks right along with the SuperFox. Also, with the number of Ithaca guns made, the graded guns are quite rare with exceptional engraving and are available at some attractive prices.

Or my 1928 Grade Three NID:)

One needs to be careful comparing prices for guns in those 1890 to WW-I years the way most of the companies played around with a high "List Price" and a much lower "Net Price" that the guns actually sold for retail.

I'm thankful for NIDs as my working-class upbringing would never allow me to spend the price of a .410-bore or 28-gauge Parker on a gun!!

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A couple more of my Ithaca Guns. My 1912 16 Gauge Flues, my go to Grouse/Woodcock gun, and was my Dad's Bird Gun. 26" factory choked Cyl/Full, and my 1938 Field NID 20 Gauge which has been my go to clays gun lately. Choked M/F and really smokes clays if you do your part.

3 different Ithaca models, #1 Special Grade 2 barrel set Crass,
#2 Charles Askin's personal 30" 16 gauge Grade 4 Flues,
#3 A very late production NID 7E

The NID was a melding of the best features from other makers, as well as Ithaca. And they advertised it as such when it was introduced.

The owner of the No. 4 Flues was at best a Major and at the time he had the Flues a First Lieut. From the 1925 Ithaca Flues catalog --

Attachment 127754

His son was the Colonel.

The engraving on the pre-1915 Ithaca guns is very nice, but I don't find their frames at all graceful in appearance. The post 1915 McGraw engraving on Ithacas to me is about on par with the Gough engraving on A.H. Fox guns. Both engravers were certainly capable, but their "to a price point" designs don't light me up.

No question, Ithacas, especially the higher grades, are handsome guns, despite my negative experience with a few of them.





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Stan, your Crass is a knock out!

Agree with Brian, how many cracked frames were the result of stuffing these guns repeatedly with roman candle loads? Hard to argue that the engraving on the high-grade Flues SBT's (6E,7E and Sousa) was anything less than sheer artistry.

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Steve, is that a 7E or a Sousa?

Bill,

She's a 1918, 7E, 34"er ordered by a noted trap shot from the Cincinnati vicinity (some of DuBray's old haunts). It came with a wonderful letter from an Ithaca marketing VP touting its stellar workmanship and relative scarcity (one of a dozen or so). Was planning an article on it for the DGJ, alas we know the sad tale there. :banghead::banghead:

I have a dedicated section of my safe with some Ithacas. My favorite is an early Flues 20 gauge, but I can't find a photo of it, so here's some color to add to the thread.

No "flying turnips" engraved on that gun!!

My Ithacas have been problem free, including my Knick Sousa.

When I went searching for my first good side by side I had my heart set on a Fox but almost succumbed to the charms of a 16ga NID. I ended up with the Fox, but always thought I'd pick up an Ithaca at some point. Hasn't happened tho (except for my Knick 5E!). Some lovely ones here for sure!

I've posted this one before. My Ithaca Lefever NS .410. This is my opening day dove gun.
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My one and only Ittaker is a Grade 3 Super Ten that i purchased through a classified ad here a couple years ago. I've been very pleased with it so far.

https://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/73264_800x600.jpg

Super 10's are great guns. Stan, yours looks like a nice one! Thanks for using the term "Ittaker" which I heard so often from old timers when I was a kid out for small game and while hunting with my Ithaca/Western Arms double with a good fox hunter in town who took me under his wing. The term sure brings back some memories. :)

I've shot many Super 10's for pattern testing and while hunting with 1-5/8 ounce/2-7/8" shells that simulated the heaviest period loadings, and with nary a problem to include the barrel ribs and forend lug. :)

Ithaca Lefever NS .410
 

This is just evidence that you can shoot; WELL! That's impressive.
They are fun guns too.

Grade 5 Crass
https://i.imgur.com/KRJBaTS.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/4kTrRRY.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/QNhV7zU.jpg

And here’s a Crass from 1892. EVERY transaction in life is a trade off as to do you want the money or said object of desire. This one, yes, the barrels have been cut, and it doesn’t have much value, but the price as purchased off this very forum was low enough that I can say that this nice condition Ithaca is far more desirable than the $450 it took to get to my doorstep. Even if only as a wallhanger but Sherman Bell has proven it’s probably okay to shoot.

I have a 410 Ithaca that I picked up for short money. Had Ryan Cullity strip and oil finish the stock as the original finish was crazed and ugly. Came out very well. Ithaca put nice wood on these early sxs's

The early NID period Ithaca Gun Co. catalogs state the stocks and forearms were "oil finish."

Attachment 127876

By 1929 Ithaca Gun Co. catalogs "oil" is gone replaced with "highly", "finely" etc.