Damascus strength
 

To anyone's knowledge have there ever been tests done to determine the relative strength of the various types of damascus?

have a click around here, lots of good info. Although i'm not sure that the direct answer to your question is located here.

https://sites.google.com/a/damascusk...e.com/www/home

Thanks Dylan,
The closest info I found there is the relative price for the various forms of damascus but not their strength. Alot of variables involved concerning my question, the biggest of which would be the wall thickness of the tested samples. The search goes on!

Contact Dr. Drew on Doublegunshop. I am sure he will be happy to help. He has all the answers you are looking for and where to find them. He has done lots of metallurgic testing including blown up barrels and he can identify pretty much all the different designs.

They just stated over there that Drew is at the mission in Guatemala right now.

Track down a copy of the Double Gun Journal with the Sherman Bell article called "Finding Out For Myself"
That is a definitive source of info on Damascus barrel strength.

Posted in another thread in the General Discussions forum-

Summer 1999 Finding Out for Myself 12 gauge Pressure Testing
Winter 1999 Finding Out for Myself Black Powder vs Smokeless Pressure Tests
Autumn 2000 Finding Out for Myself III The Forgotten Tens (Lead Shot)
Spring 2001 Finding Out for Myself IV The Forgotten Tens (Bismuth Shot)
Winter 2001 Finding Out for Myself V Long Shells In Short Chambers
Summer 2002 Finding Out for Myself VI Smokeless vs Black
Spring 2003 Addendum Finding Out for Myself Parts III & IV
Updated the list Spring 2004 Finding Out for Myself VII Express Rifle Pressure Variables
Winter 2004 Finding Out for Myself VIII Black Powder Rifle Tests
Autumn 2005 Finding Out for Myself IX Fluid Steel, Stronger Than Damascus?
Autumn 2005 Finding Out for Myself Part X Black Powder vs Nitro (Rifle) Pressure Testing
Autumn 2006 Finding Out for Myself Part XI Wall-Hanger Rendezvous- “The Proof” is In The Shooting
Winter 2006 Finding Out for Myself Part XII Wall-Hanger Rendezvous & The Slow Powder Myth
Spring 2007 Finding Out for Myself Part XIII Wall-Hanger Rendezvous-Special Tests
Summer 2008 Finding Out for Myself Part XIV Wall Hanger Rendezvous- Damascus, Remington & Parker
Autumn 2008 Finding Out for Myself Part XV Bulk(y) Powder In Express Rifles
Autumn 2009 Finding Out for Myself Part XVI The Last Rendezvous-Bottom-Of-The-Barrel Wall Hangers
Summer 2011 Finding Out for Myself Part XVII Express Rifle Case Fillers

From Dr. Drew

Ken's got 'em.
These are the Destructive Test articles

Vol 10, Issue 2, Summer 1999, Part 1, p. 9
Vol 10, Issue 4, Winter 1999, p. 21 - Destructive testing of Parker GH Damascus
Vol 16, Issue 2, Summer 2005 - Destructive testing of Parker VH Vulcan Steel

I don't have Ken's Autumn 2005 Finding Out for Myself IX Fluid Steel, Stronger Than Damascus? listed. Is that the Parker VH test?

Vol 17, Issue 3, Autumn 2006, p. 12 - Destructive testing 8 Damascus doubles
Vol 17, Issue 4, Winter 2006, p. 28 - Destructive testing 7 Damascus
Vol 18, Issue 1, Spring 2007 -
Destructive testing on a Damascus barrel with thinned walls; calculated by O.D. - I.D. and not measured.
Destructive testing using various obstructions, including a 20g shell.
Destructive testing using a shell loaded with 3 1/4 Drams by volume or 56 grains of Unique (similar to “Infallible”) with 1 1/4 oz. shot. The chamber burst with the first shot.

Vol 19, Issue 2, Summer 2008, p. 18 - Destructive testing 1 Damascus, 6 Twist
Vol 20, Issue 3, Autumn 2009, p. 108 - Destructive testing 1 Damascus, 5 Twist “Bottom-Of-The-Barrel Wall-Hangers”

More good reasons to hang on to all of our DGJ issues. I certainly don't remember all the info accumulated in the DGJ articles so it's good to be able to put your hands on the hard copies.

But the three volumes of the DGJ Index and Reader should answer any question regarding authors, subject matter/title and volume/issue/date of where to find it.

Daniel has said Vol. III will be hitting our mailboxes in late March 2024.




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Harry and anyone who has concerns about what has been printed on shell boxes for a hundrrd years or so…. And even to this day RST prints the same thing….
Originally it was because most of the biggest ammo manufacturers were owned by or in cahoots with firearms manufacturers and this ploy was developed in order to sell more new guns with the newer fluid steel barrels , but today and even in RST’s case it is all about liability insurance. The insurance companies demand that be printed on the box to reduce their exposure to lawsuits.





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This has been hashed out on multiple site, and publications for years, and in the absence of any of proof of that, I think it comes down to urban legend.

It's always been generally accepted that the real reason was that the advent of smokeless powder drove the ultimate introduction of steel barrels. Hand loading in the days of only damascus steel barrels was very common, and those blown up barrels that generated the bad press was due largely to the lack of enough instructions and cautions relating to The weights and volume of powders. Charging a gun with smokeless powder of the weight, or volume of the black powder charge previously used was the real error, and not the material the barrels were made of. Sherman Bell knew this, and simply saying so wasn't enough for him, so he proved it, beyond any reasonable doubt.
I think the warning on RST may be more Morris, than the insurance company. You don't see other shotshell boxes with the old 'You'll blow your gun up' warning.

Actual tensile testing by METL here in Phoenix, a certified metal testing lab is here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...hfDxmrNAU/edit

Several of the segments were contributed by PGCA members

This might be helpful for those interested in facts rather than mythology
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...hIiY62Hx4/edit

Unfortunately, the fate of about 30 barrels donated to 'Zircon' for metallurgical testing is unknown

To all who have responded to this post so far... Thank you. It has been opined that the finer crolle patterns caused by the twisting of the steel and iron billets results in a weaker barrel. What prompted the original question was, to what relative degree are the various patterns such as Chain..Bernard..American Flag etc. worked to achieve the desired design, or, would the ratio of the steel to iron composition be a deciding factor?

Austin:
1. Pattern welded barrels were fabricated with wrought iron and very low carbon steel

2. As a result of the process using high heat and pressure, it was the opinion of the metallurgist at METL that the resultant product became essentially a mono-metal.

20X photomicrograph after etching with 3% Nital solution showing the bands (alternees) and a crack probably within a steel alternee, but possibly at an iron-steel interface.
The parallel lines inferiorly may be related to shear forces during the rolling and hammer welding manufacturing process.
The globular inclusions are predominantly within the grey etched steel alternees.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Barrel-Ev...ck%2020X-L.jpg

The non-metallic inclusions are composed predominantly of silicon, phosphorus, and sulfur. Obviously, the 'cleaner' the iron and steel, the stronger.

3. The pattern is a result of how the lopin is 'stacked' and the rod twisted

Top: Star or Etoile’
Left: Double 81 Bernard
Middle: Extra-Fine Crolle
Right: Washington or "American Flag"

https://photos.smugmug.com/Damascus/...Meth%202-S.jpg

4. IMHO the pattern does not determine the strength of the tube. BUT if someone would like to cut about 3" of the nice Bernard II barrel on a C grade :crying: I'll run it over to METL for tensile testing ;)

Wernher von Braun “One test result is worth one thousand expert opinions.”

As a layman who has made a bit of this stuff, Id say that the metalurgists sound right. The time at welding heat results in carbon migration from steel to iron, possibly other elements as well. That said, if the metal was completely uniform it wouldnt likely etch differently.

It is true that the the twisting process can lead to small tears in the welded ribbands but its my opinion that most of these are re -welded during the spiral barrel welding sequence. The tighter the twist (finer pattern) higher incidence of tearing but also greater homogeneity of the finished product. In a well made barrel, the twists likely didnt result in tearing and the welds are all perfect. This is where the skilled workers made it happen.
Wrought iron is non homogenous and what most inclusions that began in the metal would remain, somewhat refined in size by the process. As Drew has said, higher grades are more refined prior to use in the barrel forging.

Sorry, duplicate of one of Drew's links.