Questions about an 1894 Parker Brothers with Damascus steel
 

Greetings!

I believe I have an 1894 hammerless 12 gauge Parker side by side with Damascus barrels. Serial number 80636. The barrels are like mirrors, they look like brand new. No pitting whatsoever. I have the original tag from the shop when it was bought and it says it can fire bulk smokeless powder. In faint red diagonal lettering it also says that it was fired with Nitro powder. Does this mean I can shoot modern low brass field loads for birds? I'm leery because it has the Damascus steel. Shoots two and three quarter black powder shells just fine!. Any thoughts from you wise individuals would be welcome! Thanks!
Alan

I can't even imagine owning such a gun and not shooting mild, low pressure ammo. There are countless recipes for the hand-loader, and commercial ammo from people like RST.
A good educational read is Sherman Bell's tests on Damascus steel barrels. One of the greatest hoodwinks ever perpetrated on the shooting sportsman. Some say it was the gun manufacturer's idea to get every 'dangerous damascus gun' relegated to the closet and sell the new, steel barreled guns.

Thank you Edgar! I really love this shotgun! Never had anything quite so fancy and quite so deadly. Black powder is kind of a pain to acquire and to clean up after. I'd like to shoot some low brass three dram modern smokeless ammo through it with seven and a half lead shot. Sounds like I'll probably be okay?

Very nice Alan
It would be worth looking at this resource, with links to more
https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads...-shoot.366087/

c. 1894 1 1/8 oz. 3 Drams BULK Smokeless pressures were 6000 - 8000 psi; Dense Smokeless very similar to today's loads.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...aAfUOZEFU/edit
It would be reasonable to restrict your shells to 1 oz. at 1200 fps target loads.

Thanks Drew!

The chamber pressure of the modern ammo is likely my biggest concern moving forward. I plan on making this new (to me) SxS my go to field gun. It hunts like a dream!

Alan

Great gun. You should also consider joining the PGCA. Best $40.00 you’ll spend this year.

Wood smokeless powder was invented in 1876. For years our ammunition companies offered all brass and paper NPEs and shooters loaded their own shotgun shells or small local firms, sporting goods and hardware stores, hand loaded shells for them. Chamberlin Cartridge Co. was one of the first offering machine loaded shells in the mid-1880s. In their 1886-7 catalog they offered smokeless powder loads, highlighted in red --

Attachment 120534

In 1890, Capt. A.W. Money and his family moved to the U.S. from England and opened the American E.C. & Schultze Powder Company in Oakland Park, Bergen County, New Jersey with offices in NYC, making smokeless powders.

Attachment 120535

The big companies began offering factory loaded shells by the early 1890s. Union Metallic Cartridge Co. was offering smokeless powder shells in 1891. Winchester offered smokeless powder shotgun shells to selected shooters in 1893 and to the general public in 1894. When Remington Arms Co. introduced their Remington Hammerless Double in 1894, their catalogs state their shotguns were adapted to all nitro powders.

Attachment 120536

As did Parker. 1902 Sears catalog listing
"ALL ARE BORED FOR NITRO OR BLACK POWDER"

https://photos.smugmug.com/Damascus/...20Parker-L.png

Drew, do you have info on what shells the shooters were using at the early GAHs in 1893 & 1894? Smokeless? Black? A mix?

Sporting Life did not document the guns, powder and shells for the GAH until 1896
https://digital.la84.org/digital/col...oll17/id/47169

March 2, 1894 Riverton vs. Carteret
Fred Hoey - Purdey, 7# 8 oz., 48 gr. “Schultz”
Charles Macalester - Purdey, 7# 5 oz., 50 gr. “Schultz”
Capt. A.W. Money - Greener, 7# 8 oz., 45 gr. “E.C.”
George Work - Purdey, 7# 8 oz., 48 gr.
Edgar Murphy - Parker, 7# 6 oz., 42 gr.
T.S. Dando - Parker, 7# 6 oz., 3 1/2 Drams
H.Y. Dolan - Scott, 7# 8 oz., 48 gr.
R.A. Welsh - Churchill, 7# 9 oz., 49 gr.

February 23, 1895 Sporting Life Keystone Crow Shoot
https://digital.la84.org/digital/col...id/55021/rec/8
1 1/4 oz. loads and no black powder
Mott shot a Greener gun with 48 grs. E.C. powder.
Bergner shot a LeFever gun with 48 grs. E.C. powder.
Jones used a Clabrough gun with 48 grs. E.C. powder.
Leonard shot a Wesley Richards gun with 45 grs. E.C. powder.
W. H. Wolstencroft shot a Francotte gun and 48 grs. American Wood Powder.
Budd used a Parker gun and 52 grs. E.C. powder.
Landis shot an L.C. Smith gun with 48 grs. E.C. powder.
Thurman used an L.C. Smith gun with 50 grs. American Wood Powder.
Leaming shot an L.C. Smith gun with 48 grs. E.C. powder.
Isaac Wolstencroft shot a Greener gun with 52 grs. Schultz powder.
Davids used an L.C. Smith gun and 47 grs. E.C. powder.
Edwards shot a Cla*brough gun and 48 grs. E.C. powder.
James Wolstencroft shot a Greener gun and 50 grs. E.C. powder.
Ed Hill used an L.C. Smith gun, 10 bore, and 52 grs. E.C. powder.
Zweilin used an L.C. Smith gun and 48 grs. E.C. powder.
Morfey shot a Greener gun with 49 grs. E.C. powder.
Rothacker used a Colt's gun with 56 grs. (4 Dr. Eq.) Schultz powder.
Hothersoll shot an L.C. Smith gun with 50 grs. American Wood Powder.
W. M. Pack shot a Greener gun with 52 grs. Schultz powder.
(Capt. A.W.) Money shot a Greener gun with 49 grs. E.C. powder.
W. H. Pack shot a Francotte gun with 50 grs. Schultz.
Treadway used a Greener gun with 48 grs. E.C. powder.

NOT light loads

Grains = Dram Equivalence c. 1895
(by 1900 “E.C.” and “Schultze” were equivalent at 14 grains/dram)

…………..“E.C.”…..”Schultze”
3 Dr. Eq……44………..42
3 1/4……….45.5………45
3 1/2……….49…….…..48
3 3/4……….53…….…..51

First Grand Smokeless Championship Handicap Live-bird Tournament given by the E.I. Du Pont De Nemours & Co. Oct., 1895
https://digital.la84.org/digital/col...id/53099/rec/2

This shotgun was in my hands today, what grade is it and what you guys think is a fair price to pay. I'm working with the family. Thank You Kindly.

DHE grade?

It is a Grade 3/Quality DH of 1894 vintage. A DHE would have automatic ejectors and Parker Bros. didn't offer ejectors until 1901.

Thank You!

I load all my own ammo for the most part and always load 2 1/2 inch shells as they will fit in everything. My 12 ga load is 18 grains of Universal Clays, RST hull, clay buster wad and Winchester 209 primers. It;s a creampuff load of 1050 FPS and 4500 +/- PSI. I have never missed a bird or target because my shot string wasn't going 1200 FPS
Weather or not your gun can stand up to modern pressures remember the wood is over 100 years old. Cheap ammo isn't worth having to get a stock repaired

I didn’t know there was such a thing as cheap ammo anymore :)

What’s a good over the counter load for hunting dove, figure a nice soft load this would be fun hunting with. Don’t know what i should run for upland

We shoot modern target loads in all our Damascus and twist steel guns. If the barrels are solid and you don't use stupid snotty field loads or the super fast target loads like "Super Crusher" at 1300-1350 FPS, you'll be fine. You have more of a chance of damaging the old wood with heavy loads than you will of blowing up a bbl.

"Cheap ammo" is a subjective term. :shock:

By "upland" do you mean pheasants and sharptqail grouse or do you mean ruffed grouse and woodcock?





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there's no such thing as cheap ammo. cheap shooters but not ammo

I suppose there is plenty of "cheap" ammo out there; I probably should have said. "I didn't know there was such a thing as inexpensive ammo anymore." :cool:

Just saw an ad in the American Hunter mag. from the NRA for a dove load.It is from Winchester and called magnum dove. 1 1/4 oz. at 1400 fps with a mix of7 1/2 and9 shot. The American magnum itis is alive and well.

Holy Crap!!....For a little dove???? :eek:





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I have shot clays with too many people who say i need all the bb's i can get and give them a 3/4 oz shell that they smoke the target with but make no converts.

Can only imagine how much that would hurt in a 7pound gun.

.[/QUOTE]

They will sell them have no fear. Absolutely insanity to come up a load like that. A solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

The average dove hunter typically fires between 5 to 9 shots for each dove bagged, with many estimates suggesting around 5 shots per dove. This means that to bag a limit of 15 doves, a hunter might use approximately 75 to 135 shots.

How big are these doves?

I feel silly trying to bag my limit with a puny 28ga.:eek:

Those must be PA doves.

So you're all set now with 3k 8ga cannon fodder rounds. Those PA doves won't have a chance.:crying:

:biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh:





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Sounds like the moronic loads they came up with (I think it was Remington) in the heyday of Canada goose hunting (c. 1970 - 1985). Called something like a "magnum duplex" load, half #BBs and half #2s for geese out of a pit; half #2s and half #4s for geese or "big ducks" over decoys. Crammed into a 2 3/4" shell with nose-bleeding velocities and eye-watering recoil! Net result was a bumper crop of crippled birds taken too far out or "flock shot" counting on the smaller sized shot to smother pitching birds as they clumped up for landing.

Sounds terrible

Or the insane turkey loads they concoct…





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Ya gotta do what ya gotta do. BWAHAHAHA!

Thank you for the info on the shotgun! I've inherited it from my brother and I'm trying to get a decent price on it for my nieces. (They've got all the financial struggles of kids in their 20s... college debt and the rest.) So far, I've gotten some lowball offers and I'm not in a rush to sell until I have a better idea what it's worth. If you were in my shoes, what would you do? It's such a beautiful piece of history with the Damascus barrels, I'm hoping someone will also appreciate it.