Looking for Original Sale Info
 

I am trying to track down a 16 Gauge, probably V Grade that was manfactured around October 1908. The gun is missing and I have the serial #'s for all the 16 Gauges manufactured in 1908 (purchased the Indentification and Serialization Book, 648 16 gauge guns were manufactured). Are the serial numbers by month, ie first number January and last number December. I have the purchasers info, my great great grandfather ordered it for my grandfather's 14 birthday and would like to know if there is a record of the order or sales receipts and would the name be listed and with that info maybe I could get the serial number?
Thanks for any help

best of Luck in that noble endeavor Charles.





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Dean,
Thank you! I hope I can get some help, and It would be great to have a Name and Contact # to ask more specific questions

The S/N has no correlation to month or year of manufacture. To find out who ordered your gun we need the S/N. Even with your S/N chances are being a low grade gun, it was probably sold to a sporting goods store or a retail store, not to an individual.

Chuck I'm confused by the first sentence.

Thanks for the additional info! Unfortunately, I am on a mission. Where are the archives for the Parker Guns, and what I have read there Order Books that listed who the guns where sold to. I was told by my grandfather that this was made for him since he was only age 14. I know that there were 648 16 gauge guns made in 1908, which is not a small number but the pictures of the Order Books lists dates and names, and given when he received the gun in October 1908 could there not be a chance something was listed? I do not know how long it took to make a gun, but my Great Grandfather owned a Feed and Grain Store in Petersburg, VA and they might have had access to Parker Guns?
My recollection was that this was a plain gun "no engraving", and due to his size it would probably even had max barrel length of 28", probably shorter.

The only guns with no engraving were the Trojan and they weren't introduced until 1912.

If the gun was actually ordered with "no engraving" it could have been any of the grades from Grade-0 up through Grade-8.

I know this can be frustrating but your best bet is to stay here and get meaningful advice from Chuck Bishop, our Research Chairman, who has access to all available Parker Gun data, and other knowledgable PGCA Members.





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Dean,
Thanks! I am reading everything I can on/about Parker Guns. I know this is going to be a process, but that is OK!

Order a letter on it.

Brian, from reading his initial post, he doesn't know the serial number. I can only look up information by serial number, nothing else. Even if I had the serial number, chances are that it was sold to a hardware store or large sporting goods stores for resale in their stores.

He asked if the serial number would indicate month and year of manufacture. It would tell us the month and year by looking at the order book or stock book dates but again, I need the serial number. Krieghoff and possibly other gun manufactures would have a code that after looking at the serial number would give you the year of manufacture.

Wish I could help more. Knowing about our ancestors guns is important to many of us.

Steve, I think the OP was asking if Parker used month and year as part of the serial number such as 0723xxx, the 07 month and 23 as the year.

True Chuck, and if it was a Parker made under Remington ownership it would be stamped with the month and year of manufacture… but it’s not.





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I would like to thank the members with their Help! This is what I know for what it’s worth:
Grandfather’s 14th Birthday gift October 1908
All Serial numbers are known for 1908 - 2975 total
648 16 gauge guns were manufactured
Only look up Gun info by Serial #
There is no correlation between the serial # and when it was made (day or month)in that year

The loaded question is, will the Order Books that cover 1908 show my Great Grandfather’s name and address ordering the gun? The pictures I have seen of Order books give a lot of info. Given that, can I request a research letter and is someone willing to accept the challenge to go through the books, or is there public access if I want to?
Thanks in advance!!

If your ancestor ordered the gun by mail or through one of Parkers salesman, (not through a store) it's possible that he would be listed in the alphabetical index in the order book. It's the only thing I can look for to help you without a S/N. The chance is 1 in a million.

What's your ancestors name that ordered the gun?

First, Thank you giving it a try. And I understand we are truly looking for a needle in a Haystack.
Name:
Charles Lunsford
Petersburg Virginia
27 N Union Street or 1 Old Street
Thank you for giving it a try

No luck. I searched the indexes from Jan 1907 to May 1910. Like I said more than likely the gun was purchased from a retail store such as a hardware or sporting goods store. Without a S/N, I can't be of help. Sorry.

Chuck, we are so fortunate to have a research chairman such as you. This thread is evidence of how diligent and willing to help you are. Thank you!

Rick

So, was the gun ordered for Charles Lunsford or by Charles Lunsford?

The only name that might have been recorded is who the gun was ordered BY.






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Mr Bishop I can’t thank you enough for looking fo me and Dean Charles Sr was ordering for Charles Jr. Charles Sr did own a Feed and Grain company under his name and I was hoping it might show up there.
When I was going through the 1908 serial #’s, there many groups of 3 to 10+ with consecutive #’s which led me to believe those were ordered by a Retailer.
That leads me to ask, how would one pursue that approach?
I can now see why everyone that owns a Parker is very loyal!!

You gave our research chairman the name of the person. He did not find your gun. Now give him the name of the feed store in Petersburg, your last hope. V grade guns, like yours probably, are almost never ordered by individuals. Sorry, that is the end of the story, unless you find the gun. By the way, there is no way to pin down the date of a gun's manufacture by serial number, only an estimate. What is your source of information about that?

Not to try and put more on Mr. Bishop, but would there not be a listing of the merchants around the area that would have ordered guns at that time frame? That my further narrow the list.

Let's say the OP can find merchants in the Petersburg/Richmond area doing business in 1908. Let's say I found those merchants in the order books and the guns they ordered. How would I know the gun or guns they ordered were for Mr. Charles Lunsford without the merchant specifically stating the gun was for Mr. Lunsford and that's a 1 in a billion possibility. Without a S/N, it's hopeless.

The OP does not state what he intends to do with this information if found. If he has the serial# does he want to try and find the gun and buy it?
The term ''ordered'' can mean many things, an order placed to the factory by a sales person working for Parker(DuBray) or to Joe at the hardware,''get me a VH Parker. The gun could have been made that year or languished in stock for 2 years.
On this forum i have read of guns not sold for a few years after being made.
OP's intentions are not clear and his definition of ordered is not clear. Special ordered with specific requirements is one thing, send me one is another.

I had a Parker 28-bore that was manufactured in 1908 but wasn’t ordered until 1912.





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Charles, the best way to find your grandfathers gun is to work backwards. Start with your family, it’s only been a couple generations. Contact all family members and friends/family of your grandfather and do some investigating. Somebody will likely remember what happened to that gun. It might still be in the family. When you get leads, use the internet to locate these people and reach out. Be patient, be persistent. Good luck.

I would like Thank everyone for their comments and suggestions. My grandfather loved to quail hunt and that was its primary use. The last time I saw the gun, I was 25, 40 years ago (1983). We recently started talking about family and the gun and so much has changed due to the internet and research and as the keeper of family stuff , I figured why not give it a shot. I have some more local research to do and if I come up empty handed I will try to purchase a similar gun made in 1908. There are more moving parts than I originally anticipated, but the next step is probably the local retailers that sold Parker Guns around 1908.
Again, I want to thank everyone who has read these posts and for all those involved with the Association.
If nothing additional if found, I will probably need advice on the purchase front.

Charles was there anything that stuck out about the gun you can remember like a pad or anything to Id it by?

Steve,
I say upfront that I am trying to remember from 40 years ago. What I do remember because he would showed me when we hunted together was the following:

16 Gauge
Barrel Length unknown, but I would assume 26” or 28” since he was 14 when he received it
Plain in appearance, looks like a VH from the pictures I have seen
I am not 100% sure but I remember the 2 plastic pieces (Butt and Grip) were plain,no Parker logo/picture
The stock close to the front had a slight crack

The gun had been well used for 70+ years
Thanks for asking

It sounds like the whole thing at this point is simply a memory. As there is no way to specifically locate the records with the limited information you have.

Plain guns like a Quality VH or a Trojan Grade were sold in large numbers to a jobber (some of whom also had retail outlets), they in turn sold them to smaller dealers who then sold them retail to individuals. Even if you knew the serial number, the surviving records would very likely show the gun sold to a jobber.

[QUOTE=...if I come up empty handed I will try to purchase a similar gun made in 1908...
If nothing additional if found, I will probably need advice on the purchase front.[/QUOTE]

Charles,

If you want to buy an honest gun join this organization and watch it daily for the gun you want. That is the only way to see the for-sale forum. And in my opinion since the guns changed little from 1908 on, any year is ok and the higher serial numbers had internal improvements that were unseen to the naked eye. This is the place to get a gun that will be honestly described and priced; and it will keep you from making a big mistake on your first Parker purchase. Just my two cents.

As a retired Museum Curator, establishing the history or provenance of an artifact such as a firearm can be challenging, rewarding, and frustrating. Like many have stated it all begins with a serial number. Little else can be done without it. Even then, the history may simply end with the original shipping information from a manufacturer. With that said, a couple of thoughts:

You mention that it was ordered with no engraving. You also state that you recall a plain, unmarked, grip cap and butt plate. Additionally, you have not sighted or heard of the gun in decades. It is possible that it may not have been a Parker.

It could have actually been a different manufacturer. It could have been an H.D. Folsom import marked C. Parker. Or, it could have been a VH or Trojan grade Parker. Without the serial number or perhaps an image your mission will end.

Maybe a family member has an image. Maybe an image is tucked away in a book or bible? I would start with family members. Sometimes the least likely family member has an image of that family member that you didn't know of or had never seen. Good luck.

One other comment that needs to be addressed is that you state you bought The Serialization book and made a list of all the guns fitting your description in 1908, then quoted a finite number. Someone, I believe Dean, mentioned that generally only high grade guns were listed in the Serialization book. That is a fact, and a lot, maybe the majority, of the lower grade guns are not listed. The serialization book is basically a summation of the existing higher grade guns records, keeping in mind that the records are incomplete and have whole sections missing. If you wnat a closer number of how many possibilities exist, data such as that is contained in The Parker Story.

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Actually Arthur, there is only a section of the serialization book where, for the purposes of the person recording the data, only listed grade 3 and higher…. Not the entire book. His reasons for onitting the lower grades is unknown and can only be guessed at.






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Dean is correct. Lower grade guns were listed in their entirety in the main part of the serialization book, as long as the guns were listed in available stock books. Arthur was mistaken.

I guess I wasincorrect. I thought I understood it butreally didn't. I just know that a lot of the lower gradeguns I try to look up are not there. The point I was trying to make though is still valid, I believe. The OP implied he had made a list of all the low grade guns and was going to try and use that to track guns. There are likely a significant number that are not in the book, maybe a lot more.

That I agree with Art.





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The Serialization Book is made up almost entirely from the entries in the Stock Books this includes all grades both hammer and hammerless. These guns were put into a database. There are a total of 30 Stock Books missing that the PGCA doesn't have records for. Each book has about 300 pages so that's approximately 9,000 guns that couldn't be put into the database used for the Serialization Book.

Before publishing the Sterilization Book, we were given access to the Order Books. It was decided to make a database for the Order Books and to search the Order Books for all the guns grade 3 and above that were missing from the Stock Book database (think Sterilization Book) and add them to the database used for the publication of the Sterilization Book. Can you imagine if all guns below grade 3 were included. Remember that Parker made 242k guns. It was just too much work to include all grades from 0 to 9.

Art, the part of the Serialization Book you refer to with no lower grade guns is one of the Appendices at the end of the book.