Chokes Revisited (and Revisited, and Revisited...)
 

I enjoy our continual discussion and debate over chokes, and a recent discussion in another thread got me to thinking more about the barrel constrictions we swear by (and at, on occasion).

It seems that the clays shooters here lean toward tight chokes. Upland bird hunters are a bit more diverse in their liking. I'm basing these observations on posts that folks make here on the site.

I have game guns (all my guns are "game guns" to me because I do not shoot clays, only wild birds), some with original tight chokes and others with a mix. A very few I've had at least one barrel altered. For me, the best choke depends on what and where I'm hunting -- grouse in the thick stuff (are they anywhere else?), late pheasants on the prairie, etc.

For me a more open choke is almost always better. I think about clay shooting (perhaps a misperception on my part, and I'm sure you guys will let me know) and how the shooter is generally stable and has time to establish his/her footing. When hunting, even over a dog on solid point, it is not uncommon to be stepping (assuming you are flushing the bird) or even kicking cover. Seldom does the wild bird hunter have perfect footing. I read the advice from "experts" that says to pause and make sure to step toward the bird. For one thing, I'm too excited to do much thinking (okay, maybe too slow-witted), and for another, birds just as often fly where and when you least expect them to, leaving you on occasion corkscrewed into cover that is doing its darnedest to trip you.

I think open chokes are best in most hunting situations over a pointing breed, but I like a second shot with some choke in the event I want to reach out further.

Some guys can wait out a quail/pheasant/Hun, etc. until the distance makes a tight choke more effective (in not spoiling the meat). I take my shots as soon as I "see" the bird and feel the gun mounted. When I wait, my poor shooting skills usually take over, and...well, you know what happens.

So, here's my recipe for chokes for various birds I have the chance to hunt regularly (again over pointing dogs). All assume light loads in vintage guns.

Grouse (early with leaves on): cylinder/improved cylinder

Grouse (later season with few leaves): skeet 1/full

Woodcock (with leaves and without): cylinder/ improved cylinder

Wild Bobwhite quail (typical agricultural cover): skeet 1/modified

Wild Bobwhite quail (more open prairie/CRP): skeet 1/tight modified or full

Wild Bobwhite quail (in the woods): go home and wait until tomorrow! (or if you have a gun with sawed off barrels, you might give it a try...and then go home)

Wild pheasants (early season): improved cylinder/tight modified

Wild pheasants (late season): modified/full

I have different ideas about dove, ducks, snipe, and rail, but I'll leave those until a later time.

So, how about you? What are your ideal chokes for your game bird hunting?

************************************************** *********
Here are some photos, courtesy of Elaine, you can peruse as you compose your answer:

1. So many options, so little time (or so it feels).
2. Leaves are down, but is this a place for tight chokes?
3. Sometimes you just get a glimpse -- no time for fancy theories here.
4. You know the bird will go out from behind cover. Do you have the speed and composure to step around the cover and plant your feet?
5. Is this a shot on the skeet range? Do they launch clays behind the shooter in any clay game? (Asking for a friend:))
6. Okay, some days you get the clear, open shot and should wait, but...
7. More often than not a late season bird has already received his Ph.D. in escapology.

Just about everything I shot at birds with this season was modified or more . For the tower shoots I like tight and tight . For preserve quail I used an M&F gun and I don’t think it caused any misses , but IC/M mighta been better .

My personal opinion and I'm sure there will be disagreements is on the field chokes are as expected but in practice is tighter chokes. Many, many years ago shot a lot of competitive skeet and the group I was with practiced all kinds of crazy things when nobody was around. Shooting in between stations, shooting 10yds behind stations, targets pulled while walking between stations and not calling, calling shots (off nose/tail, by halfway to stake, at stake, beyond far house, etc.) And we shot with M/F chokes. Did the same thing with targets from trap houses.

It taught sight pictures and leads. Then when shooting competition or hunts, we used the appropriate choke.

Most bird hunting, for me its IC and mod or full. Unfortunately the birds don't know the chokes I'm using and tend to flush whenever they feel like it. I do use larger shot for the second round expecting the shot to be 40yds+.

I don’t know the answer. But when I was a kid I had a modified choke semi-auto. I used it for years. I shot quail on the covey rise. I shot singles I would walk up. I shot rabbits when they were jumped at close range and when they were at longer ranges. I shot dove at water holes, in corn fields and at the edge of woods they were flying into roost. I shot squirrels out of tall hickory trees and shorter trees. That modified choke 20 would do it all.

I suppose a multiple choke double might have been better but I never gave it any thought.

Good thread Garry! Strictly for birds, I might have one gun that has an IC bbl, that's my 26" Lefever 12g. Everything else is either M/M, M/F or F/F. Yes, there are a few that are LM or IM, but for simplicity I'll just say M. My favorite upland bird gun is the Trojan 16g 28". That's M/F. If I think I'll have some up close and personal bird contacts I'll use spreaders (9 or 10 shot). If targeting mudbat I'll use #10, otherwise I'll load triplex loads (8, 7 1/2 and 6 shot) or duplex (5 and 6 shot). Straight away/incoming birds or birds with distance get the tighter bbl. Crossing, rising, dropping, closer birds get the more open bbl. Same thought process in clays for me, the shot size is determined by what type of target it is.

Turkey get Tight/Tight and a headful of #5 or XF and a headful of TSS (Rem turkey pump gun).

Waterfowl get LM/LM and ITX.

Crow get LM/LM and #5.

BTW, the LM/LM is a 12g 30" BSS. Chokes by Urlan, restocked by Dan Rositter and has an ISIS recoil system so it loves snotty loads.

Garry, is there anything left of that bird in pic #6??????

We kinda followed the same path . I shot competitive skeet and trap quite a few years back . It was all about SK & SK chokes in my Krieghoff and all the tubes . But in the trap barrels I wanted quite tight . I used to like to play a little game at the local club . I had a couple motives however we’d bet a couple bucks and usually someone was crowing to loud . We’d shoot a round of trap and a round of skeet high score winning the pot ; the catch however was you had to use the same gun same barrels and or chokes for both . They all knew I competed somewhere darn near every weekend so my Krieghoff was not allowed . Just so happened a had a Winchester Model 12 in 16 gauge with a 28” solid rib full choke barrel . And most of the time I went 50x50 never below 48x50 . Only sucked them in to doing this about eight times :rotf::rotf::rotf:

I just shoot whichever gun speaks to me that day no matter what the chokes are :o . Sorry Garry; I didn't read the book; I'll just wait till the movie comes out :biglaugh:

Yepper. Same. I shot a Perazzi MX3 tubes and 1100 in 12. Would put the full or mod barrel on the 1100. Or the full on then.410. We all tried as hard as we could to make the shooter miss delayed pulls. Throw empties over the barrel when called pull anything to distract from the target. But it forced you to concentrate on nothing but the target.

As most of you know I spend most of my hunting days in a duck blind. I have hunted blue quail, Mearns quail and wild bobs in Texas and Arizona. All over pointers with a CSMC 20ga Fox choked IC/Mod. I have hunted wild Pheasants in North and South Dakota early in the season with my Philly Fox CE 20ga choked M/F. Grouse and woodcock with my CSMC Fox choked IC/Mod with a spreader in the right barrel. Never thought any deeper than that, put the muzzle ahead of the bird and pull the trigger.

Muzzle ahead of target. That's the answer. :cheers:

Just don't ask me about the perfect duck gun, at 73 I'm still undecided after 50 plus years chasing waterfowl LOL. But the search for the perfect duck gun has resulted in a great life time hobby. The search continues and now I own 30+or- duck guns to cover every possible situation encountered by a duck hunter LOL.

Just one gun is no fun! The next one just might be “the one.” At least that’s what I tell my wife. :)

Craig, that sounds suspiciously like my quest for the perfect grouse and woodcock gun.






.

Only 30? Mr. Larter, you need to go shopping.

Bingo!! Chokes to me are the least of my concerns. #1 is gun fit especially pitch followed by DAC. Next is trigger pull. I firmly believe that you will wound and lose more game with open chokes.

I have come to believe that choke is more of a mental thing. If the gun fits you, you can hit most any target (live or inanimate) in most any situation.

P.S. Never underestimate the mental thing.

Garry, I too, am a fan of open chokes. I am also mostly an upland bird hunter who occasionaly shoots sporting clays. I'd shoot more but there are no courses close to me.
I think the best chokes for me would be cyl/mod on grouse, and I have several Parkers that letter with that configuration. I also shoot several hammer guns choked cyl/full.
Certainly, late season in South Dakota has me shooting tighter chokes, but actually most of the birds killed are in cyl bore range.
I grew up hunting grouse and woodcock exclusively, but if I had grown up on the prairie, Iam sure I would prefer tighter chokes, and I have yet to sit in a duck blind. That being said, I often grab tight choked guns and dont worry about it, and dont mess with spreaders either.

Great discussion. I agree 90% with Garry's initial post. I hunt upland a lot. I only started shooting skeet 3 years ago after retiring. On a good day afield I'm a B or B+ shooter; on a bad day a C or even a C-. So take what I say with a grain of salt.
I always feel lucky to have my feet planted where they should be for the intended target. Much of the time the wrong foot is forward, vines of hops are gripping my barrel and I'm tapping the trigger in a rush because an alder is about to block my swing as I lean to my left and shoot to the right.
Shotgun dimensions? A shorter LOP on cold days afield when I have multiple layers on, a longer LOP when in a short sleeve only.
If it's raining I take a modern gun with chokes that's easily disassembled to dry out back at camp. Otherwise, I bring an old timer Parker with fixed chokes- whatever one feels better that morning...
However, in general:
skeet/improved on woodcock and grouse in NH; IC/modified or mod/IM on pheasant in SD; and I'm a new transplant in SC so haven't quite figured out a choke yet for quail and woodcock, but having fun experimenting.
...no wonder I'm a C to B grade shooter....

That’s one of the most important reasons to have a dog.





.

Do Chokes really matter with todays Modern Ammo....with the shot still in the cup when exiting the barrel, how much will that constriction at the end the tubes affect the pattern? Legit question to those that know more than me.

I suspect someone has done pattern testing using modern loads with cupped wads which are identical to the old loads. What are the results?

Ive tested sg16 wads agains fiber wads with all other variables the same. i didnt note much difference in paper patterns, velocity and pressure may differ, I dont know. i did accidentally stumble on a notable difference between hard and chilled shot. Since i believe Parker was using chilled to develop their patterns, maybe this has some bearing on the difference people describe with modern ammo?

Great exchanges here, thanks to all who've contributed. I hope to read more thoughts and opinions.

I do want to be clear on a couple of points:

1. Gun fit is especially essential when shooting calls for quick shots (actually, it's important all the time, but, for example, on a dove field where I have time to adjust myself to a gun, I can get away with one that's not a perfect fit). As Chris already posted, I, too, can get away with shorter LOP when shooting with heavy clothing (ducks -- I rarely wear more than a shirt and vest while upland bird hunting). Remember, most of us are shooting guns not special ordered by us, but by folks from another era.

2. My choice of chokes is not to compensate for my shooting (Chris, you and I would get along well in the field), but rather is what I think is best suited to the conditions. When close shots are expected, no need to blow a bird up with a full choke pattern...when they get up at distances, I feel the need for the greater reach of a tighter choke.

My choice of choke is not based on my shooting prowess (or lack thereof:))

As for the issue of modern v. old shell "technology," I do believe that the improvements in contemporary shotshells make a difference in what chokes are best for a specific gun (just as some shot sizes pattern better with certain guns/chokes), although I admit I don't have first hand, authoritative knowledge of this. The paper tells the tale. Aaron may find other results in his tests, and I hope he'll continue to add to the discussion, but I recall a pretty persuasive essay by McIntosh that advocated for cylinder chokes.

At the distances I generally shoot, open chokes make clean kills and seldom ruin the meat.

I don't take long shots as a rule. I'm not sure if it's a matter of my misjudging the distances and thinking birds are farther than they are, or circumstance, but most of my shots are 30 yards and under (and often much under). So when I choose a tighter choke, it's more a matter of either wanting the extra shot to bring down a late season pheasant and/or needing a tighter pattern to reach out.

Again, I'm appreciative of the comments here and hope we'll get more folks to chime in.

I have read of instances, either here or in other publications/boards, about the surprising distances hunters/shooters have hit their targets with cylinder choked shotguns. It would be interesting to give an open choked, long barreled 12 to a shooter who prefers tight chokes, let them shoot a round of sporting clays with the gun and see what kind of results they might have without them knowing how the gun was choked. I would speculate that a very good shooter would have a very good round, despite how the gun was choked.

Distance is only one factor in choke selection. Speed, angle, and face are the others. A chandelle presentation (lots of face) at a basis L to R angle with a lot of spring can be broken at amazing distances with a Cyl or IC. As the target slows, the face diminishes, and or the angle increases the effectiveness of the Cyl and IC will decrease. Folks get focused on distance and that's only part of the equation.

Reggie I won't comment on how I would do with that long barreled open choked gun you referenced but I promise you I would know something was up with me or the chokes in short order, it's usually me :)

Good points all.

To clarify my point, hard shot will tighten a pattern and allegedly increase penetration both good things for longer range shooting with whatever choke you got left.

I guess my question is "If everything is equal - velocity, pressure, shot hardness, choke and any other variable you can think about, how does a cup affect the pattern". I would guess patterns will be tighter

Chokes
 

I was shooting in a sporting clays tournament and there were a group of us discussing chokes for particular stations that were challenging a lot of us shooters. And as were theorizing about choke selection and their effectiveness Andy Duffy walked up and began listening to the conversation. Maybe some of you have heard of Andy Duffy, he has won the NSCA national championship 3 times and the national FITASC championship 4 times. Andy probably knows a little about chokes and shotgun shooting. Well after a while Andy chimed in and said, you guys are talking about things that matter within inches and you're missing these targets by feet. Put the chokes in the gun that pattern well with the loads you're shooting and shoot them.
Of course, none of us really knew which loads patterned well with which chokes. And then he said the key was to shoot where the target (bird or clay) was going to be.
I've never forgot that; worried about inches and missing by feet.
To Reggie's point...

This topic can get quite cerebral. Non-enthusiast outsiders might consider it the stuff of an Aquinian colloquy, but it all adds to the joys and intrigue of shooting and gun ownership.

Aaron's post, as I understand it, is that after some experimentation he observed that chokes will alter a pattern as expected, and not render them modulated to the point of irrelevancy, when loading his shells using modern shot cups.

And do you remember the counter-intuitive arguments made about choke midway into the following thread -- one I am still transfixed by -- that choke OPENS a pattern?

https://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=33795

Here is as I understand it a distillation of the audaciously unconventional points that were advanced by two of our members whose prodigious Parker gun erudition is regularly shared on this Forum:

***************
Dean R.: I had a 16 ga. Lifter that had been cut back from 28” to 24” so it effectively had no choke. But that little gun could really account for itself on 35, 40 and longer yardage clay targets. I was always amazed by how this gun would smash targets waay out there.

***********
Edgar S.: "……An object at rest remains at rest, and an object in motion remains in motion at constant speed and in a straight line unless acted on by an unbalanced force."

Newton's First Law says to me that a cylinder bore will alter the direction and spread less than a choked bore. I have patterned a couple guns that have had their barrels cut to an extent that NO choke exists. I was amazed to see that the pattern is very much tighter than a lightly choked bore, up to a point where air resistance also begins to affect it.”

****************
Got that: “…a cylinder bore will alter the direction and spread less than a choked bore.”

i have done a couple test. shot a 1940's 12 ga 1 oz of 4's, in the only 2 test i did . I shot at 40 yds 30 in. circle with a full choked VH . i got very tight patterns, both test were done about a year apart because i couldn't believe it was that tight the 1st time. with the same gun in my reload it wasn't near as tight ,some where there is a post of this and pics of the pattern.
scott

I dont see choke as a solution for missing so much as contributing to the results of a hit. Did the clay get smoked or just shatter? just a chip? Did the bird have two broken wingtips when the dog brought it back, or was it a bloody pulp BEFORE the wirehair got it? Most examples are much subtler and I think paper can show some of that but as pointed out, its really not whats happening in the real world.

“Got that: “…a cylinder bore will alter the direction and spread less than a choked bore.” “

That’s correct depending on how you read the statement. Cylinder choke is the widest spread. No constriction, wide spread and as distance increases, so does the size of that pattern. The tighter the choke the farther the pattern stays “close” and is dense enough to crush a target or cancel a game bird’s flight.

As game has become scarce over the last many years, I have become much more concerned over the ethics of the sport and respect for the game. I try to always use a gun properly matched to the conditions. Enough choke to cleanly kill the animal and not so much to as to destroy it. We are asking the game to die for our benefit and it's demise shouldn't be wasted.

Clays are an entirely different question. I went for years changing chokes for every station, trying to optimize my shots. I then read a long interview with George Digweed. When asked about chokes, he said he shot a Beretta provided by them, but the only chokes he used were F/F which were rusted into place (his words). His reason was that he could tell within a few inches how far off he was on each shot. If he hit the top front section of the bird on a shot, then he would adjust down and back slightly on the next. Probably one of the key methods to him developing into the best wingshot in the world at the time. Once you reach that level there is not a lot of reason to change to a more open choke. However, I don't believe it is a method that is relevant to an ethical hunting situation.

I hope Im not beating a dead horse here but I had to get my christmas present out and test my assertions. So we have a 12 ga ph with cyl and full barrels as measured with a drop in choke gauge. At Foster's 23 yrds (ish) I note a 22" pattern in the apparently cylinder barrel. Some flyers, but clearly effective and to credit the no choke proponents- not a spray-all blown pattern at all.
Both fiber and plastic were about the same, fiber was better dispersed-less bunched but still covered the same area.
The full choke was near 100% inside a 16" circle at the same range.
All with spartan shot.

Andy Duffy's comment to Larry the Gun Guy is pertinent to shooters who think using tight chokes for all around clay target shooting is fatal to good scores. Duffy is correct in saying that misses are not by the size of the pattern edges, but are in feet or yards because of head lifting and barrel "peeking". A shooter who can keep his head on the stock and resist peeking at the barrel or sight can shoot consistent 23s or 24s at 21 yard skeet birds with a full choke gun.

Duffy was at our club two years ago shooting one Tuesday night on the five stand . I let him shoot the first 8 gauge I acquired . He’s a decent enough fellow . I’ve shot skeet for forty plus years , shooting a straight round with a full choked gun semi regularly is nothing if you’ve been shooting skeet for a long time .

I understand more open chokes for upland game, but I'm an old pigeon shooter, and I believe that tight chokes help a good shot, but hurt a poor shot.

Mike:

A full reading of the impromptu discussion on some conjectured anomalous effects of choke boring vs. those of true cylinder suggest to me a different conclusion. That may be just me –- I have been puzzling over the points made ever since they arose on 7-21-21.

The digression was in the thread started by Jay announcing the purchase of a pre-choke era cylinder bore Parker hammer gun.

https://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=33795

Russell

The late, great Michael McIntosh once wrote in a magazine article that, due to the improvements in ammunition (plastic shot cups and progressive burning powders) , choke boring is obsolete today. He was a great double gun writer and enthusiast but I have always suspected he occasionally wrote things to see what kind of "fallout" would occur.

Choke boring is certainly not obsolete, just ask pigeon shooters, crow shooters, dove hunters, turkey hunters, etc. I played the registered sporting clays game for over twenty years. I began by thinking I needed to swap screw-in chokes to match the station's presentations. I worked my way up to AA class, while at the same time searching for just the right gun. A Perazzi MX8 trap gun came my way, choked full and full. I swapped the buttstock to one more suitable for sporting, and had the chokes opened to .020" and .020"(M and M). I soon punched my way into M class shooting that gun, some 13 years ago. I still shoot it at sporting, though I no longer pursue the tournament "circuit", and have never questioned my choice. IMO, tight chokes will make a better shot out of you, all else being equal. Dust promotes self confidence, chips do not. Self confidence helps you get into the "zone".