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Need help identifying & valueing an old parker
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I need some help to identify an old Parker hammerless double 12 ga shotgun. 28 inch mod/full barrels. From what research I have already done I believe the gun in question is a grade 3 mfg'd in 1902. The Vulcan barrels & for-end however were made in 1909 which leads me to believe that the gun was re-barreled some time after 1909. Also the different wear patterns between the frame & barrels tend to confirm my belief. The water table shows crisp engraving & at most a 40% rating for remaining case hardening finish where-as the barrels & matching for-end show what I believe is a solid 80% remaining finish. The water table shows a Number 3 over the serial # 109878 and the letter D below the #. The barrel shows #149999 with a #2 on the bottom lug, a V in a circle , and the #4 with a small #1 just above and to the right on the right barrel flat. I will try to attach pictures for clarification. Identity & possible value would be appreciated.
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Someone more knowledgeable will be around shortly but it looks like someone took a D grade action and assembled it to V grade barrels. I'm a bit skeptical to say it was "rebarreled" as it looks like there is a gap between the face and the barrels.... more likely someone just put those barrels on that gun. 2 is the frame size for those barrels, the most common frame size in 12 gauge.
if you remove the forearm only is there any wiggle in the barrels with the action closed? |
I removed the for-end and can feel a very slight side - to - side click but really can't see any change in the barrel gap.
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Then I guess that basically I am looking at a "mongrel" for collector value and just a shooter ?
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I'm relatively new at collecting myself, there are a ton of very knowledgeable people on this forum that have been doing this for way longer than I. Perhaps you and I will both learn something today. |
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Thank you everyone for your help. I will inform the owner that he basically has a "wall hanger" or bait for the next buy-back program by the local police dept. Either way He will be told to NOT SHOOT IT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES !!
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That 1902 DH is much more likely to be a 2 frame than a 1 1/2 frame. And the gunk we see may just be grease. 109878 started life with Damascus barrels, so I suspect someone found a set of Vulcan steel barrels that fit or were easily fitted to the gun. I’ve had that done several times and I’m not by myself. It’s not a collectible but it could be a shooter. You just need someone who knows what they’re looking at to give you a hands on inspection.
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Whoa! Slow down there, buckaroo. Before you condemn a shooter, have someone familiar with Parkers look at the gun In Hand.
Digital pictures on the internet can be very misleading. The gun left the factory as a Damascus barrel Grade 3, and possibly the owner fell victim of the "Dangerous Damacus" hype. There are lots (and lots) of 1 1/2 AND 1 frame 12 gauge guns out there, so even if there was some profiling of the very end of the breach end of the barrels, there's still no less than the wall a 1 1/2 frame gun would have there.(Which is still more than a 1 frame gun) I'd be more concerned about profiling in the forcing cone area than at the end of the barrels. The fit of the dolls head 'appears' very good, and would belie the assumption a full 1/16" was removed. There doesn't appear to be any alteration of the dolls head. The receiver has well more value than the sum of it's parts, and it's still possible to seek out a set of better fitting barrels. In any case, I don't see anything that says the receiver is definitely a 1 1/2 frame. The only way to know for certain is to measure the width of the bolsters,, and height of the standing breech. |
Who says it is a 1-1/2 frame gun? The frame is not marked, so unless all of the critical measurements are taken to confirm, we would not know. I would assume the frame is a 2 frame, as the barrels are marked. Obviously the gun just had barrels from another gun put on it and fitted down fairly crudely. The barrels were taken down around the breech and a lot on the rib extension to meet the frame. There can be a lot of variations from gun to gun in these areas. The gun the barrels came from were heavier at the breech than that DH they went onto.
Put some primed hulls in and dry fire it and see if the pins are striking the primers on center. I would say that there is no reason that the gun would not be shootable from what I see, but it should be looked at by someone more knowledgeable to make sure there are no unforseen issues. And please, dont let it go to a buy back. The owner will get screwed and the gun will be destroyed. Someone would pay 6 times for it in parts than they will get from a damn buy back program. |
The Vulcan barrels were most definitely NOT fitted to tgat gun by Parker Bros. as evidenced by that very poorly fitted doll’s head rib extension and the ‘never before seen’ engraving style on it. The doll’s head was also filed down in a convex slope to meet with the top of the frame contour and the lever. Furthermore tgere are huge gaps between the frame and the doll’s head that you could drive a truck through.
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…and the distance between firing pin centers. . |
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For the sake of my own education. How can you tell the barrels have been profiled to the frame and that material has been removed from the breech face? I can see clearly now that the rib has been contoured after reading the comments. I’ve been staring at the pictures for some time and I can’t see it, So I’d like to be able to identify it in the future. Is it the gap between the dolls head and the receiver? Could that not be caused by either removing the material from the dolls head only, removing material from the breach face only, or a combination of the two? Thanks in advance.
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The amount of a gap there is at the back side of the dolls head is an indication of a couple things. That the barrels were set back a lot, or there was some crude filing done in that area. Or both. More than likely the former. When the barrels are set back on the breech, that are opens up some. It is what it is. This amount is a lot. There really is not anything functionally wrong with it. As long as the barrels are on face. |
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I’m saying that the quickest and easiest way to determine frame size is to measure the distance between firing pin centers in sixteenths of an inch, also shown on the pages you have included Edgar. . |
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So, back to my original question; Is the information in the serialization book incorrect? |
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Excapt for the engraving, this is what an original doll's head rib extension would have looked like.
The second one is on the subject gun - compare the two to see the differences. . |
We would like to see the wood to see how many of the VH parts made it onto the DH frame.
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Again, in 1928, with the addition of the Half Frame, which at least numerically fell in between the 0 frame, and 1 frame, the firing pin spacing is is 1 1/16", the same as the One frame. Since the question remains unanswered as to whether the subject gun in the original post was a 2 Frame, or a 1 1/2 Frame, using the firing pin spacing and the tables, the question remains a question, because regardless, the firing pin spacing, Horizontally, is still 1 1/8". Because the standing breech dimension between 1 1/2 and 2 differs, the firing pins may be striking slightly off center, in the Vertical plane. So, using the firing pin spacing alone may get you to the right neighborhood, it might not get you to the right house. |
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