Defining a Parker Long Range shotgun
 

This subject was partially approached by our membership in a thread of 2-24-2017 and some excellent points were made.
Page 23 of the 1929 Flying Geese catalog refers to the ""Parker Long Range Duck Gun".

The question that remains is what did Parker Bros actually do to the Long Range guns to allow them to handle the new Super-X 3in magnum shells?
These were developed by John Olin at Winchester-Western and first used by Charles Askins and Nash Buckingham with a couple of AH Fox HE 3 in Super Fox guns bored by Bert Becker about 1923-25.
The Super Fox guns were over-bored on heavy almost 10-ga- 12 gauge frames. The LC Smith Long Range Wildfowl models had reinforced lug "splinters".Most of the Fox-Smiths were full choked with barrels 30-32 inches in length.

Parker stated in 1929 " The purchaser of a Parker Long Range can rest assured
that he will receive a gun heavy enough and properly bored to shoot the heaviest loads for the killing of wildfowl at extreme ranges".

What did Parker Bros actually do to the barrels and actions of their Long Range shotguns? Technically, that is.

This Long Range shotgun issue has also been explored on the LC Smith site where some LC Smiths were 3 in chambered earlier in the 20s but not marked Long Range. Parker was undoubtedly influenced by Fox, Smith and Winchester to produce a Long Range Wildfowl gun to utilize the new progressive powder shells like the Super-X 3in 12 ga and to compete with the other U.S. shotgun manufacturers.
The 1930s Long Range Remington-Parkers were marked with 3 inch chamber stamping. just like the earlier Fox and LC Smith guns.
It also appears that Fox, Smith and Parker could mark chambers or not, with 2 3/4 in or 3in actual chambers. {I own a 3in Super Fox and a 3 in Smith Long Range Waterfowl , along with two Winchester Heavy Duck 3 in Model 12s }.

My 1930s Remington-Parker catalog on page 32 states under the paragraph heading : Parker Extra Long Range Duck Guns ;
"Ordinarily, Parker 12 gauge guns are chambered up to and including 2 3/4 inches. Those guns can be furnished with special long range choke
boring to give more effective results at extreme ranges. 12 gauge guns -with the exception of the 'Trojan' are also available with 3 inch chambers for use with maximum long range heavy loaded shells. So chambered, Parker guns are guaranteed to handle these shells properly."

So, special boring and chambering, and possibly 1 1/2 -3 frames, but no mention of a special magnum or heavy 12 gauge frame and possibly no
extra action reinforcing to handle repeated use with magnum level 3 inch shells. But Parker guarantees their guns to properly handle the magnum 3-inch pressures like in the Super-X loadings.

The question still remains: did either Parker Bros in 1924-29 or Remington -Parker later reinforce their guns in some other manner to
withstand repeated pounding from Magnum 3-inch 12 Ga shells?

I believe they ran advertising pointing out they would build what you wanted
I’d be surprised if the new super-x lead to any design change

A lot of the long range stuff was hype. The LC was not a bigger frame or heavier barrels. I’ve had two, one had the reinforced lug, one did not

BTW. A Super Fox is not a 10 frame it was a model specific design

I can't answer your question, Henderson, but would like to address this statement:

The Super Fox guns were overbored, strategically, and the chamber dimensions were altered. Much was done to produce the ultimate patterns with the, then new, 3" WW magnum loads. But, they were not built on a 10 ga. frame. There was never a 10 ga. Fox frame, action, or otherwise.

So far as I understood it, Parkers chambered for 3" shells at the factory are easily distinguished as such vs. essentially larger framed (e.g. 2 and 3-framed guns) 12 ga. guns whose chambers were lengthened after market to accept 3" shells; if you lay as straightedge along the FULL LENGTH of an original factory 3" chambered gun, there is no "swamp" or taper to the barrels, they are straight along the full length of the barrel. Guns bored after market show a decided taper or "dip" to the parallel line from breech to muzzle. And as the case with Fox HE grade guns, most were marked "3 " but not all of them.

While AH Fox never made a 10 ga frame, the appearance of a full sized Super
Fox with weight in many cases in excess of 9 pounds-led such writers of the 1920s as Askins and Buckingham to label the HE as approaching a 10 gauge frame size.

Regardless who made the gun, it has been my experience that the longer the taper of the choke, the pattern remains tighter to a further distance.The Remington Wittemore choke began it's taper at nearly the midpoint of the barrel, with the tightest portion back from the muzzle about 1 1/2-2", and then straight. The belief was that the shot column was more stabilized over the longer constriction, and didn't begin to open until well downrange. I may be over simplifying what I have come to understand, for which I apologize.

I think many of us would rate the 32” 3 frame 12 ga Parker as being as close to the Super Fox as Parker made

Parker 1 frame 20/32" with 2 7/8 chambers, choked F/F is my "long range" gun. Oh and I also have an Elsie Crown 20/32", 3" chambers, F/F that probably would qualify as well. My two Fox 20/32" don't have the long chambers but they reach out there pretty far too! :cool:

You often write glowingly and with tidbits of info on Super-Fox guns; perhaps you can provide the references by Askins and Buck to the frames and to that effect? What I've seen are period comments relating to the earliest barrel caliber, i.e., nominally .748/750", which approached 10-gauge bore sizing (actually about 11-gauge). Most Super-Fox frames were made from from 12-gauge frame forgings but machined with somewhat wider width across the breech balls and also at the back end of the frame where it abuts the head of the stock. I wrote "most" because some small number of Supers were "ordered light" and were made up on regular machined frames and running as light as ~ 8-1/4 pounds. For anyone interested and wanting to get into the lore of Supers, it would be well to refer to the index of Super-Fox articles in the DGJ that's on the paying members part of the Fox Collectors forum; plenty of good reading and tech info therein. frank

Yikes! That is quite a selection of big 20s. :shock:

what Frank modestly leaves out is that he authored several of those articles
and knows very well what he is talking about.

Rick there will be one of these at Hausmanns, actually a 34" 12 on the 3 frame with Damascus barrels. 152 thou at the end of the chambers. Unstruck barrel weight of 6-8 with a total weight at 1 oz under 10 lbs.

It wasn't Winchester-Western, it was Western Cartridge Company! The Olins didn't buy the defunct Winchester Repeating Arms Company until the end of 1931. Askins and Sweeley were at the A.H. Fox factory working with Becker the summer of 1921. Buckingham's testing of an early Super-Fox and early Western progressive burning powder shells, written up in his article "Magnum Opus" in the September 1955, Outdoor Life, likely took place in the fall of 1921. The 2 3/4-inch 12- and 20-gauge Super-X shells were on the market for the 1922 season with the 16-gauge Super-X 1 1/8-ounce load added late that year. This magazine ad appeared in the October 1922, issue of National Sportsman and other sporting magazines.

Attachment 107016

The term "Magnum" wasn't applied to the 12-gauge, 3-inch, Super-X 1 3/8-ounce load. The term "Magnum" was used to describe the 12-gauge, 3-inch, 1 5/8-ounce load which came out in 1935, along with the Winchester Model 12 Heavy Duck.

Attachment 107029

Attachment 107030

Is that one you will be shooting Randy? Or displaying?

It will be in the Peoples Choice Awards. I do shoot wobble trap with it, plenty of choke.

The guns that Parker Brothers or Remington advertised as "Long Range" guns with 3" chambers were not similar or identical to earlier 3" chamber 12 gauge guns. The thirties vintage 3" guns were lightly constructed #1 1/2 frame guns. Many, well, maybe not many, earlier guns chambered for 3" shells were built on many different frames, #2, #3, and a very few eight gauge rebarrels on #6 frames. However, they were built earlier than the Remington advertised "Long Range" guns on # 1 1/2 frames. As earlier posted, it is assumed that the Remington era "Long Range" guns were straight tapered from the breech, but an actual wall thickness measurement would confirm that assumption. I have yet to hear from someone who has made and posted those measurements.

As well built and as strong as the Super Fox HE grade and the later Fox Sterlingworth 3- inch guns were, they seem to have served best with goose and duck hunters.
Unless ordered with lesser weight barrels, and less overall weight-they were not ideal for
hunting wild turkey. ( From direct experience in the East and Western United States).

In this instance, the LC Smith Long Range , Winchester Heavy Duck M-12, and Parker Long Range guns may well have held a weight advantage. However, a number of Super Fox actual users, then and now- attribute longer range of the HE grade, gun to gun.
It is also a factor that the Winchester M-12 3-inch Heavy Duck guns held a price advantage and continued to be produced. Unless these long range shotguns are compared with relative weights, ranges, pattern densities and modern available shot shells- it becomes a matter of opinion.

However, in hunting with all of them except the Parker Long Range gun, I have established some comparative objective performance standards concerning the guns that I own.
Hence, the original question which has been partially answered.
{The opinions of the author are his own, and are based on his own hunting experiences utilizing various shot shells from manufacturers in his own shotguns.}

Hopefully, this has been of some value to the membership.

Colonel, if carrying weight is a consideration, the 7 1/2 pound Model 21 Winchester 3" gun and the 7 1/2 pound Remington era 3" chamber, "Long Range" Parker win hands down. The 3" Model 21 used barrels that are identical to 2 3/4" barrels and the gun weight is also the same. We will wait to see if someone will measure the wall thickness of a Remington era 3" Parker and compare those measurements to a common 1 1/2 frame 12 gauge of the same era. The Remington era 3" Parkers I have handled were very light and seemed identical to any 1 1/2 frame 12 gauge. I have never seen or heard of a 3" Parker made in the late era with a #2 or #3 frame, although they may exist.

Bill:

Weight is a consideration, but I will plead guilty to a certain bias toward Parker Brothers, AH Fox, and LC Smith double guns.
I have 1886 Winchesters and pre-war Model 70s. But, I probably will never own a Model 21.
But you have a point; those who hunt grouse and pintails as speedy birds have never seen an Eastern old gobbler come out of a full strut to beat American Pharoah in 50 yards.

Does anyone actually have an unmolested Parker Bros. 12-gauge, gun chambered for 3-inch shells, from the period 1923 to 1933 that letters as such?

Back in 63 before I shipped out I ha........ wait that was a bad dream sorry :whistle::rotf:

Here’s one I immediately fell in love with when Tony advertised it on his website in 2002.
I was trying to round up some of the money when it disappeared…
Good thing though - I would probably have found myself single a lot sooner than now…


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Dave, not quite what you asked about but I recently found a 32" 12-gauge VHE, 194000's range shown as made in mid 1921, that has 2-7/8" chambers, bores at .749/750" and 6+" long full tapered chokes with constrictions at 48 and 50 points. That's with my Super-Fox chamber length gauge and Stan Baker bore mike, so the measurements are accurate. I know that 1921 date is a bit pre-intro of progressive powder factory shells but we know a lot of 3-inch experimentation was going on in that period by Askins, Sweeley, E I DuPont and others, and was being written up in the sporting mags. And in turn that influenced some people to Jump in and order guns for handloaded 3-inchers and anticipated factory machine made shells. It's an interesting gun with barrels that look to be unmolested, and I'll be doing more research on it along with patterning etc. Also looks to have been a ducker, no surprise there. :)

Wow Frank, those are TIGHT chokes! Congratulations on finding that awesome "fowler."




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Frank,
Nice VHE Parker. Appears that it might resemble the very nice 1924 VHE
waterfowl shotgun that graces the front cover of the Winter 2021 issue of Parker Pages.
You have managed to locate some excellent sources
for both Parkers and the occasional Fox.

The gun Frank describes probably predates the "Long Range" 3" gun seen in Parker literature. By the way, a letter or other documentation is not necessary to identify an original "Long Range" 3" gun. They were stamped on the left side barrel lug with the 3" marking along with the grade of the gun. To answer Dave's question, Albright's Gun Shop in Easton, Maryland sold a field used VHE 3" marked 30" #1 1/2 frame gun several years ago. It had/has typical Remington markings on the left side of the barrel lug. I could not get past the low condition and short stock so it went on to be sold to Mark Conrad. I believe Mark improved the condition a bit and may have sold it. I have not seen the gun for more than 15 years. It was a beavertail, single trigger gun.

Those are all late Remington guns in the 241xxx range. VHE on 1 1/2 frame --

Attachment 107047

CHE on a 2 frame --

Attachment 107048

CHE on a 1 1/2 frame --

Attachment 107049

I was asking about guns from Parker Bros. well before those late 3" marked Remington guns.

Ridge, actually it's the other way around. I've been a long time Fox nut (mainly) and thus it's been Foxes and the occasional Parker and Lefever, both of which I'd come to appreciate and look for good ones. The VHE 32" on the front cover of the Winter '21 PP edition is in very high condition and probably unfired since leaving Meriden. The VHE 32" referred to here is in lesser condition, having been used over the water.

Those following this thread may be interested in an upcoming article in the DGJ that elaborates on the 1919-22 experimentation with 12-gauge/3-inch progressive shells and "borings" for the Special Long Range waterfowl guns, in particular the Super-Fox and the somewhat underappreciated LC Smith Long Range. It’s likely to be in the Summer edition.

Thanks Frank. It would be great if those Remington 3-inch guns I pictured above could pass through your hands at least long enough for some of your good measurements. Actually, when those Remington guns were made, we were into the age of the 12-gauge 3-inch Magnum 1 5/8-ounce loads

Dave, I'd love to do that with my Super-Fox chamber length and taper gauges and with the bore mike. If anyone has one to bring to the Northeast SxS please let me know so I bring my tools. Truck is starting to get pretty full.

nothing stirs my blood like talking about these 3 inch guns be it 12 ga or 16 ga or 20 ga...they are special too me....charlie

I didn’t see it in the description with the picture , but did you find out if it had 2 7/8” chambers ?

Kinda along these lines I have a DH 16 gauge 32” on a 2 frame I purchased from someone here less than a year ago . It’s a 1916 gun that’s PG DT splinter FE drop at heel is 2 1/2 and lop to the SB is 14 1/2” with a weight of 8 pounds even . Both barrels are full plus . To me the 2 frame is unusual as well as the letter verified 2 7/8” chambers . This past tower shoot season I was fairly regularly making shots on pheasants I normally wouldn’t try with my 12 pigeon gun .

this gun must of used the 3 inch 16 ga shell...bill murphy has a big 16 ga gun also...I like hearing about these heavy weight guns....charlie

Back then I was so new to Parkerology that I never even considered asking. I never asked and if it was in the rest of the description I wouldn’t have thought to remember.





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Dave has gotten me to reflecting:

I have owned 3 and still hunt with a Long Range 3 inch LC Smith, a Super Fox 3 inch gun of which I have owned two, and retain two M-12 3 in Heavy Duck guns.
I have not actually seen or handled a Parker 3 inch gun. It does beg the question:how many Parker 3 inch or 2 7/8 inch guns were actually made
and sold?

Other manufacturers by the 1930s were surely taking up market share: Winchester, Fox (Sterlingworth), possibly Ithaca, and some British doubles.
Fox later used up the last of the HE grade barrels and frames to market
a waterfowl heavy Sterlingworth. The price of that rarer late Fox was close to the original Super Fox HE price. Not many were offered or sold.
The Depression and new game law restrictions on geese and duck limits played a part in supply and demand. Many hunters bought used Model 12 pump shotguns in the 30s because they could not afford even a used double gun.

An Abercrombie and Fitch NYC 1933 used gun catalog, personally owned- offered a Parker A-1 Special for a bit over $200.

I have no doubt an NID in 3" 12ga would handle the heavy load well

but Ithaca's specific entry to the long range waterfowl arms race was the 2 7/8 Super 10 - not to be confused with the later 3 1/2 magnum 10 boat anchor

The Ithaca Super is a wonderfully efficient hunting tool

I like my 3 1/2” Ithaca Boat Anchor, but I do have to buy longer sleeved shirts after using it. It’s a turkey killing machine.

Do we have a number on the L.C. Smith Wildfowl/Long Range guns? A quick look in Houchins this morning while my oats were cooking, I didn't see one.

The count of their records Ithaca Gun Co. did back in the 1960s showed 87 12-gauges built on the NID magnum-frame. The Magnum-12 wasn't listed in the Ithaca Gun Co. catalogs until 1937, but we see 12-gauge guns throughout the 500000 serial number range. However, some of these 12-gauges built on the NID magnum-frame that have surfaced have 2 3/4" chambers.

A.H. Fox Gun Co./Savage Arms Corp. built about 950 12-gauge HE-Grade Super-Fox guns but how many started life chambered for 3-inch shells is not known.

Some other manufacturers tried their hand in the field as well. Davis Warner Arms Corp. offered one of their N.R. Davis doubles which they called Hy-Power Grade --

Attachment 107086

The Hy-Power Grade doesn't appear in the Crescent - Davis Arms Corp. paper from the 1930s.

2704 Long Range and Wild Fowl LCS were made.