Modification question, would it be right
 

A question about what to do. An early 1900s classic English SxS 16ga in very nice overall condition. Not a London Best Gun. Barrels are 30" and do not appear to have been cut. Chambers are 2 1/2" and chokes measure a cyl/cyl. I cannot confirm original specs as to factory chokes, but I question the cyl/cyl.
As 16ga 2 1/2" shells are pure unobtainium and probably will be for the foreseeable future would you look to having a good smith lengthen the chambers to 2 3/4"? I currently load low pressure 16s in that length for a 1912 J.P. Sauer that had its chambers done at some point it its life. I do not like altering a gun but I hate to see a solid, well preserved gun become a display piece b/c ammo is not available. TIA

Why not reload for the new gun?

Those chokes may very well be original . My 12 ga WW Greener has 30" cyl/cyl as does my Scottish 20 ga with 30" cyl/cy/.
Are those fluid steel or damascus barrels?
Hopefully someone with more mettalurgical knowledge will weigh in. The English had no problems altering guns to fit their needs. My first Parker a 1 frame VH 16 had its chambers lengthened back in the 1980's.
I have 11 16 ga's, most with short chambers so I've loaded short 16's for years.

I would not do anything to alter the barrels, ever, especially barrels belonging to an English gun. It’s hard to find English guns that haven’t been messed with. Brits know how to take care of their guns and refinishing didn’t effect the value like it does with American guns, but any alteration of the barrels will reduce the value of a British gun.

Lengthening chambers will let you shoot 2-3/4” ammo, but at some point low pressure 2-1/2” shells will be available, but your barrels will still have been modified.

I agree and concur with what's been offered in response to your question. IF the gun is still in proof, opening the chambers will take the gun out of proof, and, as stated already, reduce its value. Also, the Brits removed lots of metal in making great handling guns and it is not uncommon to have barrel walls be in proof and be much thinner than what you might find in an American gun of the same vintage. Opening chambers and, especially, forcing cones, could be disastrous.

Good things come to he who waits.

For your consideration, I've used 2 3/4" low pressure reloads (1200 fps or less) in all of my English 16s for years. With absolutely no problems. And... if you reference Sherman Bell's 2006 testing in DGJ of 2 3/4 shells v. 2 1/2 hulls, you'll see virtually no to very little pressure increase due to the 1/4" more hull length. Just use the same ammo you make for your other 16s. You'll be fine.

As others have said, i would not open the chambers up.

Ken

If you measure Remington dove and quail loads you will find the unfired length is 21/4" and the fired length is 21/2". I have used them for years in short chambered damascus and fluid steel barrels with no problems. Opening the chambers will devalue your gun.

Will lengthening the chambers devalue your gun? Only to a "collector" If you sell your gun as a "Shooter" it will most likely sell quicker and you still might make some scratch on the deal. Personally, I'd rather buy a gun that will take 2 3/4" shells than a gun that can only use 2 1/2" shells. After all, we are buying and shooting "used guns". Enjoy them and shoot them. If the gun needs some work to make it usable for you then make it usable. It's a personal decision and one that only you can make.

As stated before, opening the chambers on an English gun and not reproofing it does make it out of proof and devalues it. The devaluation is not as severe on American guns because they were not subject to proof laws.

It would only devalue it (to a collector) if you tried to sell it in England again and that's not happening any time soon. Proper barrel measurements will show whether it can be safely done whether it's an American gun or a Euro gun.

If you're currently reloading 16ga. 2 3/4", you probably have a favorite recipe.
It 's my experience, having been reloading for nearly 50 years, that there is no 2 3/4" load, that I can not duplicate in 2 1/2", with an alternate wad. I load 12-28 and have the 'short kit' on all of my MEC presses. With the exception of a great wad by Fiocchi, which has been on back order for a year, I use Guilandi wads and almost all are available in short or long (and even medium) lengths.

Thanks to all for responding. This place is a real pool of knowledge and view points.
I have gotten info from the maker in England and still have not reached an agreement but I am as interested as ever. I have decided that altering the barrels is NOT the path I would take. I Have had advise both ways about 2 3/4" in the short chambers and not sure how comfortable I'd be as to pressures. The idea of making & loading 2 1/2" shells is less intimidating and that is the path I'd go down.

Maybe this willl be considered as being too picky but, cylinder bore at the muzzles is not "choke". "Choke" is another term for constriction and, the lack of constriction constitutes an absence of choke.

I understand, and realize, that there may seem to be a lack of accepted terminology to describe this condition. But, in the end, a gun that is cylinder bore at the muzzles has NO choke.

That is what I have always understood as the definition of cylinder bore. I’ve always taken cylinder bore as an indication that barrels may have been cut on older guns. More recently I have been told that some English guns were made with extremely open chokes for use in driven hunts and that cylinder bore was not really unusual.

However, there are many examples of Parkers that were choked “cylinder” from the factory where there is actually bore constriction of up to .005” or even .007” at the muzzle. I feel certain that this was done to get an acceptable pellet count.




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I concur with you, Dean.
I have lettered Parkers with recorded cylinder bores with .004 constriction. If you define cylinder by its pattern (50%) and you need slight constriction to achieve that…

Fox Sterlingworth Skeet & Upland Game Guns (SKUGGS) are typically choked "skeet/cylinder" (a Savage Fox designation) in the right barrel, but usually measure between .004-.007" actual constriction at the muzzle, which jibes with what Dean wrote.

Sherman Bell did the research for us, finding that there is no appreciable rise in pressure when shooting 2 3/4" shells in 2 1/2" chambers. The advice from Bell and others is to shoot shells of a load that was made for the gun, regardless of the length of the hull. I have shot 2 1/2 DE, 1 ounce factory 2 3/4" 16 gauge loads in short chamber 16s for decades with no ill effects on the guns. Drilling out a short chamber gun is a waste of time and money and possibly to the detriment of the value of the gun. The Brits do so much to destroy their gun barrels by excessive honing of the bores, and I won't add to the damage by drilling out the chambers.

...or lengthening forcing cones for that matter.





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I will look into the Guilandi wads. I am not familiar with the name.